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Nonsense versus Horse Sense...
      #352141 - 11/14/09 01:37 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

There are some on the message board who have significant time on their hands. Usually, I don't have time for internet things and responses to this board as much as I might like to. Yet with the drastic changes in California weather-wise I have spent some time at this website reading.

Syl,

With all due respect here, let's not get into "Analysis Paralysis" as opposed to basics for IBS control one day at a time.

Most of us know that doctors are of no practical help. Having knowledge about studies do not solve any problems. These sometimes make for interesting reading and an ash of temporal understanding, yet such does NOT solve the personal path of this physical condition and including reasonable control of it.

We are all here to find recipes, learn basics, while enuraging others (support) in their own personal recovery. There is no need to dwell on temporal scientific studies that prove nothing.

Are you aware that this is what pharmaceutical companies dwell on with their clinical trials and subsequent drug releases and sales?... that being to support their pharametical company for millions and billions of dollars of every year? Yep, they would like to drug people legally, rather than teach them to eat properly. Figures!

Please know that I am not attacking you personally, though disagree on some of your responses.

In reality, some of these posts were sufferers asking a simple question or sharing of their frustrations around IBS.

When asked for the time on another's wristwatch, do they REALLY need a lecture on HOW the watch was made? We just want to function physically as best we can. Everybody is different and have no desire to go to back to college to become a medical practioner.

My philposopy around all of this is to pay attention to what you eat and with whom we spend any significant time around.

Healthy relationships can be some of the greatest stress relievers, and likewise some people can to prove to be our major stress inducers.

Be aware that phamaceutical companies have a priority of selling their medications (drugs). They know asolutely nothing about cause and effect. Prescription drugs often cause more problems than they (the drug) actually helps.

Most people today want that "quick fix" in pill form, and ones easy to swallow of course... making pharma companies multi-billion dollar companies.

In my experience, what sufferers need is sound suggests on diet and stress reduction, not more stress from analyzing everthing.

In the end (again, in my personal experience), one does not feel better by temporal technical information about this condition, as opposed to practical information and encouragement for each of us who presently are suffering and seeking answers to our personal questions in and around food issues, and personal symptom control. These things do not happen overnight, and they have been with some of us for many decades.





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Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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Re: Nonsense versus Horse Sense... new
      #352142 - 11/14/09 01:51 PM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

Interesting point of view.

I too believe in focusing on the basics, one day at a time, ignoring the reasons for the cause of IBS and using simple tool to manage the symptoms.

Like you I am not an advocate of pharmaceuticals. However, I am an advocate of science not pseudo-science.

Wise dietary control, stress and anxiety reduction, exercise and common sense not nonsense are at the core of my IBS management practices. Heather has been an inspiration in this practice.

It is a pleasure to have articulate and wise thinkers like yourself on this board.

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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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Re: Nonsense versus Horse Sense... new
      #352145 - 11/14/09 02:20 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


lol - some of your points are funny. How the watch is made? OMG funny!

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Re: Nonsense versus Horse Sense... new
      #352151 - 11/14/09 04:31 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota

I can appreciate your sentiments. I come at IBS from a directly opposite point of view from Syl. Yet, he has proven very helpful to the board and he is very considerate and non-argumentative like many of the brainy male posters can be on other forums!
So it is great to have various stances on IBS and of course lots of personal experience and suggestions on this board. We have overcome a lot of differences here and all grown. Some people have more of a left-side brain and others a right-side brain if you know what I mean. I feel both the technical and the everyday advice is worthwhile to posters here.

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IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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Re: Nonsense versus Horse Sense... new
      #352173 - 11/15/09 01:27 PM
shawneric

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon

all 19 million IBS studies in PUBmed are not all about pharmacy mangement of IBS.

I to would rather see IBSers get better without drugs, but that is not based in reality. I am not a big supporter of drugs either, they have a place however and without research on them how would one know what to take or do?

What are the statistics of people learning about there condition IBS and the impact education has on IBSers and their symptoms?

The leading cause of misdiagnoses is self diagnoses, IBS is complex, that is a reality as well and many people misdiagnose themselves that actually have IBS, which also drives up healthcare and anxiety as they look everywhere for a "cure."

A good doctor pateint relationship has shown to be extremely benefical in IBS.

"Most of us know that doctors are of no practical help"

Depends on your doctor, some of mine have been tremedously helpful.

"Having knowledge about studies do not solve any problems"

yes it actually does.

The science behind IBS has been making huge progress and there is practical information to be learned from it, from diagnoses to treatments.

as for the watch analogy, it is very important to understand some digestion basics in order to understand IBS. Since IBS involves abnormal functioning of the digestive tract, it can help to understand why that is and what can be done about it, from foods to stress to hormones to medications ect..

Say for example a womens hormones trigger IBS, explaining the process can be helpful.



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My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com


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Windchimes new
      #352174 - 11/15/09 01:35 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


You make some very good points, many that I agree with.

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Re: Nonsense versus Horse Sense... new
      #352175 - 11/15/09 01:45 PM
shawneric

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon

do you think its important for IBSers to know about the Brain gut axis and that they have a typoe of brain in the gut? A lot don't but it is very important in IBS.

this is positive or negative?

What Patients Know About Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS) and What They Would Like to Know

National Survey on Patient Educational Needs in IBS and Development and Validation of the Patient Educational
Posted 09/18/2007

Albena Halpert, M.D.; Christine B. Dalton, PA-C; Olafur Palsson, Psy.D.; Carolyn Morris, Ph.D.; Yuming Hu, Ph.D.; Shrikant Bangdiwala, Ph.D.; Jane Hankins; Nancy Norton; Douglas Drossman, M.D.

Abstract and Introduction
Abstract
Patient education improves clinical outcomes in patients with chronic illness, but little is known about the education needs of patients with IBS.
Objectives: The objective of this study was to identify: (1) patients perceptions about IBS; (2) the content areas where patients feel insufficiently informed, i.e., "knowledge gaps" about diagnosis, treatment options, etiology, triggers, prognosis, and role of stress; and (3) whether there are differences related to items 1 and 2 among clinically significant subgroups.
Methods: The IBS-Patient Education Questionnaire (IBS-PEQ) was developed using patient focus groups and cognitive item reduction of items. The IBS-PEQ was administered to a national sample of IBS patients via mail and online.
Analysis: Frequencies of item endorsements were obtained. Clinically relevant groups, (a) health care seekers or nonhealth care seekers and ((IMG:http://www.ibsgroup.org/forums/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) users or nonusers of the Web, were identified and grouped as MD/Web, MD/non-Web, and non-MD/Web.
Results: 1,242 patients completed the survey (371 via mail and 871 online), mean age was 39.3 ± 12.5 yr, educational attainment 15 ± 2.6 yr, 85% female, IBS duration 6.9 ± 4.2 yr, 79% have seen an MD for IBS in the last 6 months, and 92.6% have used the Web for health information. The most prevalent IBS misconceptions included (% of subjects agreeing with the statement): IBS is caused by lack of digestive enzymes (52%), is a form of colitis (42.8%), will worsen with age (47.9%), and can develop into colitis (43%) or malnutrition (37.7%) or cancer (21.4%). IBS patients were interested in learning about (% of subjects choosing an item): (1) foods to avoid (63.3%), (2) causes of IBS (62%), (3) coping strategies (59.4%), (4) medications (55.2%), (5) will they have to live with IBS for life (51.6%), and (6) research studies (48.6%). Patients using the Web were better informed about IBS.
Conclusion: (1) Many patients hold misconceptions about IBS being caused by dietary habits, developing into cancer, colitis, causing malnutrition, or worsening with age; (2) patients most often seek information about dietary changes; and (3) educational needs may be different for persons using the internet for medical information.

Introduction
Because of the impact of chronic conditions on health status and health care expenditures, managing chronic illness is one of the major challenges of modern medicine. Consequently, there is growing interest in effective educational programs, to provide patients with the necessary knowledge, skills, and confidence (self-efficacy) to manage their disease-related problems.

The goal of patient education is to facilitate changes in patient behavior for the purpose of disease management or prevention. While different health education theories focus on many different aspects of this complicated process, most agree that facilitating change of behavior requires incorporating the patients' current knowledge, prior disease experiences, attitudes, goals, motivations, and cultural perceptions. The existing literature describes educational interventions based on a variety of health education models (e.g., health belief model, the theory of planned behavior, or theory of self-efficacy) in search of effective educational models for the management of diabetes, hypertension, arthritis, and cancer. However, relatively little is known about what constitutes an effective patient education model in irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) and other functional bowel disorders. The emerging research typifies IBS as a brain-gut disorder where psychosocial factors (e.g., stress, cognitions, coping, etc.) can alter the symptoms and illness experience for better or worse. Due to these and other disease specific characteristics, that are amenable to education, we believe effective educational interventions may significantly impact the management of this common disorder. Prior to designing, studying, and implementing theory based educational strategies for IBS, we need to better understand patients' disease experience, knowledge, misconceptions, motivations, and perceptions. Few studies to date have evaluated IBS "through the patients' eyes" and none have systematically examined patients' prior knowledge about IBS.

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Current Knowledge and Misconceptions About IBS
The majority of participants were able to correctly identify the symptoms and triggers of IBS. Stress at work and psychological factors were identified as triggers by more than 70% of subjects. Of note is that a significant number of patients held misconceptions, including that IBS can develop into: colitis (43% agree, 29.7% not sure), malnutrition (37.7% agree, 33% not sure), a problem needing surgery (34.3% agree, 33% not sure), and cancer (21.4% agree and 36.3% not sure). In addition, a significant number of responders thought that IBS results from lack of digestive enzymes (52.1% agree and 28.2% not sure) and would worsen with age (47.9% agreed and 30.4% not sure). The majority of the participants were optimistic that new treatments will be soon available for IBS (62.6% agreed, 27.8% not sure). See Table 3 , Table 4 , Table 5 and Table 6 for correct conceptions and misconceptions (the latter shown in italics) about IBS. Regarding knowledge about lifestyle modifications as a treatment for IBS, subjects endorsed mainly eating small meals, a high fiber, low fat diet, and avoiding milk products. Nondietary lifestyle modifications such as exercise were not frequently endorsed ( Table 7 ). The majority of our subjects were familiar with first-line treatments for IBS such as antispasmodics, antidiarrheals, and fiber agents. A total of 35% endorsed antidepressants, 16% tegaserod, and 5% alosetron ( Table 8 ). When asked if psychological treatments (cognitive behavior therapy, relaxation techniques, etc.) are potential treatments for IBS, 29.1% of participants disagreed, 41.7% agreed, and 21.4% were neutral/not sure.

Educational Needs Regarding IBS
Subjects were primarily interested in learning about what foods to avoid, causes of IBS, and coping strategies. In addition, more than 50% of responders wondered if IBS will shorten their lives, how psychological factors affect IBS, and what medications they can use to prevent an IBS "attack." Of note is that close to half of the participants wanted to know about what is a normal bowel habit, whether IBS will get worse and about available IBS research. See Table 9 and Table 10 for more detailed results on patient educational needs.

IBS Educational Needs Regarding IBS in Subgroups
Patients who used the Web, regardless of clinic status, seemed better informed about IBS and held fewer misconceptions (e.g., had less need to know what IBS is, or whether it will shorten their lives), and more interested in learning about the causes of IBS, foods to avoid, and coping strategies ( Table 13 ). Finally, based on our findings we created a summary of an IBS patient profile regarding IBS knowledge and educational needs ( Table 14 ).

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Discussion
Educating patients about their illnesses improves adherence to treatment, quality of life, and satisfaction with care.

___________________________________

Our survey identified what IBS patients in the United States know about their condition and what their educational needs are in regard to IBS. There are several key findings, which have implications for the way in which clinicians needs to offer education.

Patients' Misconceptions About Implications of IBS: Patients hold misconceptions about IBS developing into cancer, colitis, causing malnutrition, or shortening the life expectancy. Such misconceptions can produce great concern, anxiety, and reluctances to accept reassurance, particularly if the physician is not aware of them. This only reinforces a vicious cycle of health worry and urgent requests for diagnosis, along with increased physician visits and demands for more testing.[14] Thus it is important for educational materials to explicitly identify and address these misconceptions. In addition, clinicians need to proactively inquire about the patient's beliefs and concerns (e.g., "What do you think is causing your symptoms?" and "What are your concerns about them?"). Eliciting these thoughts and feelings will have a palliative effect on health anxiety and will lead to a more therapeutic response when the reassurance occurs within the context of the patient's expressed concerns.


Patients Seek Information Primarily About Food and Diet: Our data highlight the strong attribution patients make about the role of diet in IBS. Patients most often seek information about dietary changes and the role of food in contributing to IBS (reflected in concerns about "what foods to avoid?"). Yet because of the limited evidence for dietary factors being causative in IBS, physicians often are unable or unwilling to offer specific advice on diet. Nevertheless, our data support the importance of addressing this topic, and to educate against idiosyncratic food practices that may occur. For patients who focus excessively on unnecessary food elimination in seeking relief from IBS symptoms, it may be helpful to explain gut physiology and introduce the possibility that the ingestion of food in general, rather than specific foods, may be triggering the symptoms. Importantly, overly restrictive diets need to be replaced by recommendations for a well-balanced diet.


Patients Associate IBS with Triggers and Distress: Notably 70% of the study subjects agreed that there is a connection between their symptoms and psychological distress. However, this report contrasts with our clinical experience, since patients less frequently volunteer this association in the clinical setting, possibly out of fear of stigmatization, or the perception that this is "all in my head." Thus it is important for the clinician to be open to this option but to inquire in a matter of fact manner: "Are there any other factors that can worsen your symptoms, like diet, physical activity, or stress?" In addition to obtaining potentially meaningful clinical data that will help treatment, this approach conveys a high level of acceptance of this association as a matter of course rather than it being a "psychiatric" problem. The high level of acceptance of stress as an operative factor in IBS may relate to the population that is being drawn from the community rather than referral settings. With the latter group, the high psychosocial morbidity is associated with denial of a role for stress.[15, 16]


Patients Consider IBS a Diagnosis of Exclusion: Over 50% of the patients considered IBS to be a "catch all" diagnosis and another 22% were unsure. While this could reflect the information provided by their physicians (thus highlighting the need to also educate physicians about IBS), this misconception may motivate patients to seek more and more diagnostic studies to find "the cause." The use of the Rome criteria[17] permits the patient to have a positive diagnosis. With confidence in knowing that IBS is a specific entity, such behaviors are minimized. Thus it is important for the physician to provide proper education about the level of confidence in the diagnosis.


Web Users are More Informed About IBS: We found that IBS patients who use the Web have better knowledge about IBS in general, fewer IBS misconceptions, and are more aware of psychosocial disturbances being associated with flares. They also seem more "up to date" with commonly used medications and more interested in learning coping strategies. The implication of this finding is that the nature and content of educational interventions will differ for Web and non-Web users with IBS. Prior data suggest that more than 50% of Americans use the Web and about 52% have used the Web for obtaining medical information.[18] Similarly, the majority of our participants have used the Web for obtaining medical information (92.6%), suggesting that future Web-designed educational interventions will probably be well accepted. For the clinician, it suggests that the type of education provided (e.g., Web sites vs brochures) and its content (i.e., the educational level of the information) must be individualized to the learning style of the patient.


Our study has several limitations. First, enrollment bias exists, since subjects interested in participating in the study may have had a higher level of education and greater motivation to learn than other patients, and they may also be more symptomatic at the time of enrollment, than the average IBS patient. However, the results would certainly apply to any patient seeking or willing to receive educational information. The findings for this study group are clinically relevant since they result from a symptomatic IBS population likely to utilize health care. A subgroup of non-consulters may have different educational needs. We also think it is important that future efforts be directed toward studies that may increase interest in learning. Another limitation relates to the relevance of the information collected from subjects not recruited from internal medicine or GI clinics (e.g., online subjects). Some respondents may have entered the study without having IBS merely to obtain the compensation offered. We implemented several measures to minimize this possibility. The study was advertised only on IBS-related Web sites, subjects had to meet Rome II criteria for IBS, had to be invited to participate, and those who qualified by the screening questions did not receive the main questionnaire immediately. Instead, they were e-mailed an entry password 24-72 hr later. This made multiple attempts to qualify for participation by the same individuals unlikely. Furthermore, participants had to provide a mailing address to receive the payment, which avoided the possibility for multiple entries coming from the same person. Finally, we acknowledge that the nature of this instrument, to assess individual knowledge and informational needs, is not amenable to standard methods to assess criterion or construct validity. There is no "gold standard," and relative to other patient report instruments, such as a health related quality of life instrument, one cannot do convergent or discriminate validity with known groups because there are no other psychometric measures to correlate with the instrument. Furthermore, there are no known groups to identify since all responses are specific to the individual. However, as noted in the methods, the use of three focus groups with a broad clinical representation to generate items, and then the use of cognitive debriefing with the investigators and a sample of 50 patients, permitted the selection of the most representative sample of items that were then applied in the quantitative analysis.

-----------------------------------------

Conclusion
Our study is the first to define the conceptions, misconceptions, and educational needs of a large national sample of IBS patients. We found that many patients hold misconceptions about the condition, some of which may negatively impact patients' emotional well-being and increase their health care needs. According to our data, patients are mostly interested in dietary modifications, and learning about coping strategies and what causes IBS. Patients who use the Web have fewer misconceptions about the disease and may differ in their educational needs from non-Web users. The results of the study can be used in both daily clinical practice and as a basis for developing a variety of patient-centered IBS educational interventions.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/562448

I hear this quote frequently, "I know my body better then the doctors do'?

Unlesss you went to med school you don't, you know your symptoms, he know how the body works better and try's to match your symptoms with organic diseases or in the case of IBS functional conditions. That is not to say there are not bad doctors, but there are good and bad ones. Sometimes people's beliefs get in the way of their own diagnoses and treatments as well, because they may not understand things the doctors do about it all. Not likely they will spend a ton of time explaining these complex issues with you.

I see though we all agree on food and stress reduction issues and even those in IBS are majorally complex.

What about the research say on clinical gut directed hypnotherapy. Its not run by Pharm companies? It has helped thousands and more, naturally and safely.

Food research and IBS is not all about parm compaines either. Research is extremely important in medicine as opposed to guessing. Is also important in IBS education and practical help. If say serotonin is a problem in IBS which they believe it really is, then people need to know about serotonin and IBS, there is no super easy way to explain that issue.

Video Corner: Serotonin

Increasingly our understanding of IBS is that it is a heterogeneous disorder – that is, multiple factors contribute to the well defined symptoms of the disorder. One of these suspected underlying dysfunctions involves serotonin, which is a neurotransmitter or messenger to nerves. Most serotonin in the body is in cells that line the gut where it senses what is going on and through receptors signals nerves that stimulate a response. The serotonin must then be reabsorbed (a process called re-uptake) into cells. This process appears to be disrupted in people with IBS.

http://www.aboutibs.org/site/learning-center/video-corner/serotonin

another thing to note is when people understand things they work better for them from drugs to othrs treatments.

You might find this interesting.

Experts: Placebo effect behind many 'natural' cures

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-11-13-placebo-alternative_N.htm?csp=34

The mind is very powerful on the body and very important in IBS since it is physically connected via the vagus nerve and talks and importantly monitors what is happening at the digestive system all the time.





--------------------
My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com


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Windchimes new
      #352176 - 11/15/09 01:49 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


By the way, don't hold back on telling us how you feel. lol That is also a funny heading,"Nonesense vs. Horsesense.



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The watch comment... new
      #352178 - 11/16/09 01:37 AM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

It is good for all of us to maintain our sense of humor, thus the watch comment. Laughter reduces stress!

For example, if I asked someone what type of baking flour they used in a recipe, I'm not seeking a lecture on the components of different types of flours on the market and how they are milled, and why the person chose a particular one for the recipe, before I get the answer to a simple question.



--------------------
Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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post for Windhcimes new
      #352180 - 11/16/09 06:28 AM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


I love it Windchimes. Don't stop being honest and sharing how you feel. You are a member of this board too, and I agree with much of what you said. Especially on the diet board you are bombarded with studies/clinical trials/articles/research/science, and blah, blah, blah. It bogs you down.

I have had better luck with holistic/alternative care, good ole common sense, and trial and error experimentation on myself. After all, I am the patient and I DO know my body better than any doctor out there.



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Re: post for Windhcimes new
      #352189 - 11/16/09 09:52 AM
shawneric

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon

Gerikat

No offence, but do you know all about your bodies enteric nervous system "brain in the gut" and how it all functions?

How many people do you think would be able to "guess' the neurotranmitter serotonin is messed up in IBS in the gut or see macroscopic inflammation in some IBSers embedded in the gut wall under layers of colon tissue?

I think, like I stated you know how you personally feel and your symptoms, not more about how your body actually works.

Modern researcher on IBS take a much more holitic view now then most alternative/holitic people I have seen on the web for years. Modern researchers treat the whole body, many alternative ones are trying to find one specific cause that they personally believe in and based on their limited knowledge, almost always without using actual IBS research they don't understand either, like food allergies or "leaky gut" or "Candida" or pathogens, even though they don't follow real IBS research and basically are using dualism, as opposed to modern researchers using a holitic approach to treating IBS.

Certain alternative and holistic practioners can't practice in some states. On the web they can get away with a lot more then they should be able too.

Also they don't do actual research on IBS.

Its a shame were not talking more about how to improve better doctor patient relationships.

You and Your Doctor: It Takes Two to Tango
by Pauline Salvucci, Self Care Connection

Your medical care is a two way street. In a good doctor patient relationship, you and your physician are accountable to one other. You have a right to good healthcare -- and you have a responsibility to get it. Distinguish yourself in the all too familiar world of impersonal healthcare and learn how to be your own best advocate.

http://www.healingwell.com/Library/health/article.asp?author=salvucci&id=5

The best approach is intergrative medicine.

National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine

What is CAM?
CAM is a group of diverse medical and health care systems, practices, and products that are not generally considered to be part of conventional medicine. While scientific evidence exists regarding some CAM therapies, for most there are key questions that are yet to be answered through well-designed scientific studies—questions such as whether these therapies are safe and whether they work for the purposes for which they are used.

Top

Are complementary medicine and alternative medicine different from each other?
Yes, they are different.

Complementary medicine is used together with conventional medicine. An example of a complementary therapy is using aromatherapyA therapy in which the scent of essential oils from flowers, herbs, and trees is inhaled to promote health and well-being. to help lessen a patient's discomfort following surgery.
Alternative medicine is used in place of conventional medicine. An example of an alternative therapy is using a special diet to treat cancer instead of undergoing surgery, radiation, or chemotherapy that has been recommended by a conventional doctor.
Top

What is integrative medicine?
Integrative medicine combines treatments from conventional medicine and CAM for which there is evidence of safety and effectiveness. It is also called integrated medicineAn approach to medicine that combines treatments from conventional medicine and CAM for which there is some high-quality scientific evidence of safety and effectiveness.

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam/overview.htm



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My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com


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Re: post for Windhcimes new
      #352190 - 11/16/09 10:17 AM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


Sorry, that post was directed at Windchimes.

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Re: The watch comment... new
      #352193 - 11/16/09 10:22 AM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


And on and on and on it goes, where it stops nobody knows. lol

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Re: The watch comment... new
      #352195 - 11/16/09 10:33 AM
shawneric

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon

There many many research doctors, organizations and even IBS suffers who are out there working extremely hard for funding for more IBS research, for public awreness, for accurate IBS information from reliable sources, for legtimizing and better able to diagnose the condition, looking for biomarkers, for helping others understnd it better even though it is super complex, researching every part of the body and how it functions and making a lot of progress. A lot of the progress and helpful information gets lost sometimes between the researchers and the regular md's and then further down to patients. Then people coming back to help try to share that information and help explain some of it.

Don't know why all that is a bad thing.

Knowledge about a health condition gives you some power and control over it.





--------------------
My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com


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How does all this research help us through our daily lives with IBS? new
      #352205 - 11/16/09 12:07 PM
frygurl

Reged: 08/18/09
Posts: 332


Okay, so there is research being done and there have been recent discoveries about the way IBS affects our nervous system, etc. But what does this information mean for us laymen who find these research studies completely esoteric? How does it help us through our daily lives with IBS?

None of the treatment options for IBS are very good - most of us still suffer on a daily basis and only manage to keep our symptoms under control by keeping a super restricted diet. I feel like I have very little power or control over this condition, even with all this information. It just leaves me more confused. The bottom line for most us is, how can we use this information to feel better?

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For frygurl new
      #352208 - 11/16/09 12:13 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

I agree completely. It doesn't matter if this condition is genetic or whatever. I happen to have it, and am looking to find day-to-day management of my symptoms.

However, I do believe in retraining the mind about food and healing whatever in the past led me along this miserable path. This is very different from all of this scientific stuff that sucks up a lot of time and energy reading and doesn't solve the problem at all... in fact some of it can just exacerbate MORE stress.

--------------------
Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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YEP! you are on the right path to a better life! nt new
      #352209 - 11/16/09 12:16 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California



--------------------
Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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It seems you are preaching to the choir! nt new
      #352210 - 11/16/09 12:18 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California



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Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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Great Question new
      #352212 - 11/16/09 12:31 PM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

Your question is excellent!

IBS is a complex disorder that the brightest scientific minds don't understand. But they are trying.

A good place to start is to follow Heather's EFI diet which is the primary purpose of this board. And ask questions about the diet and how to manage individual symptoms.

There lots of people with loads of experience that can help answer simple questions and interpret recent IBS findings in a simple way when possible.

If a new proven IBS management technique is found you are more likely to hear about on the board than from your GP or GI doctor. If something technical catches your eye and you want to know how you might use it then post a question asking for a simple explanation. Some times people can point you to a document you can print off and take to your doctor for further explanation or investigation.

Almost everyone on the board will tell that IBS is an individual thing. It involves a lot of trial and error. You are likely to run into many dead ends. The resources on this board will provide you with the best clues they can. It will be up to you find your individual solutions. It will be up to us to support you



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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
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Re: For frygurl new
      #352214 - 11/16/09 12:36 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


Yep!

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Re: It seems you are preaching to the choir! nt new
      #352215 - 11/16/09 12:37 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


Yep. lol

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Re: The watch comment... new
      #352218 - 11/16/09 12:57 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


Jeez, enough! Anyone can find any study to back up their opinion. Studies are a dime a dozen, and anyone can find them on the internet, if we choose to. Please just stop. I get it. I know there are ongoing studies.



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Thank you! And I agree... new
      #352219 - 11/16/09 01:00 PM
HeatherAdministrator

Reged: 12/09/02
Posts: 7799
Loc: Seattle, WA

there are benefits to both approaches, and people either seem to like the balance or they just discard one aspect altogether and focus on the other.

Some people really enjoy and appreciate the research and the scientific aspects, others simply could not care less and find the whole topic unhelpful. They want help for how to live and that's that.

I too appreciate that people tend to be very polite and accomodating about the different approaches regardless of whether they find one or the other more suitable to their own needs.

I'd like the board to encompass as many posters as possible while still staying on target, and also staying a courteous place to be. Usually I think that is pretty much the case.

- H

--------------------
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Re: Nonsense versus Horse Sense... new
      #352220 - 11/16/09 01:04 PM
MikeCA1870

Reged: 03/30/09
Posts: 110


Just want to throw some support behind Syl. His posts (always thought you were female until this post) are enlightening and the studies are incredibly important. I know my body, sure, but diet, stress releif, exercise, and every holistic treatment du jour didn't help me at all, while 30mg of Desipramine allow me to work every day without fear. That's not to say I don't follow the EFI diet, I do, religiously, it's just that had I left it at that and not taken to pharmaceuticals I'd still be fully miserable today instead of like 30-40% miserable .

The studies energize me because I WANT to know how the watch is made, because you can't really fully understand the watch until you do so. I think our culture is the worse off for relying on all this great science and technology but not really being able to explain how it works, just that it does.

Also, it gives me hope for a cure knowing that really smart people are out there trying to figure it out.

I may be one of those "brainy males" who apparently dominate and create conflict in forums as was mentioned earlier on this topic, but if I want a problem solved, then I'm going to attack that problem from every angle, leave no stone unturned, and never settle for good enough.

So thanks Syl for your contributions.

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Re: Nonsense versus Horse Sense... new
      #352221 - 11/16/09 01:07 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


Then you're in the right place.

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I use regular white flour..HTH new
      #352223 - 11/16/09 01:09 PM
dragonfly

Reged: 05/12/08
Posts: 1088
Loc: canada



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IBS-D since 1999...mostly stable..i do cheat too.Bad me.


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Re: I use regular white flour..HTH new
      #352224 - 11/16/09 01:12 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


Hmmm...interesting, so do I. Just plain, simple ole white flour.

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Re: How does all this research help us through our daily lives with IBS? new
      #352226 - 11/16/09 01:17 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

It really doesn't at all!!!

Once one understands the basics of some level of stability and prevention of attacks, we can help one another with questions and practical suggestions, and tasty recipes. We also are needing some level of sympathy and encouragement, where we may not find such in our lives elsewhere.

Some of this head stuff reminds me of people who know the bible forward and backwards, can recite specific scripture in a heartbeat, but do not practice practical application in their own lives as an encouraging example to others. Sad, but true.

I am a Christian senior woman, yet am careful who I spend significant time with or allow to influence me with their head knowledge, absent them being a living example of encouragement and on the right path themselves.

If I wanted, or felt I needed a college education and degree in IBS to remain stable, I would go to college. I simply don't feel nor believe such is necessary at all. For those who want such, great! For those of us who don't, leave us alone!

Many of us have made it clear that we don't want to get into all the technical studies about IBS. We are looking for practical answers to consider for personal symptom control, and that's the only reason why we are here.

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For Heather... new
      #352233 - 11/16/09 01:29 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

Perhaps we need a category for technical information and studies from member input for those who actually enjoy reading all of that stuff. For me, such sounds like a study in technical cause and effect, and such really doesn't help me at all when my gut is hurting and my bowels are exploding.

In fact, such can be a stressor as I do not have time for it. I'm busy attempting to get present symptoms under control. I sometimes feel attacked by technical responses. I wish some people would just start a new thread for their 'head sense' of factual reading material.

In no way do I mean to be rude, just somewhat weary of those who insist on paragraph after paragraph of technical information as to cause. I understand the basics of the psychosomatic connection that makes much sense, and that's enough for me.

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Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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Re: Nonsense versus Horse Sense... new
      #352234 - 11/16/09 01:35 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

If you want the time, ask for the time. If you want to know how the watch was made, feel free to ask that question.

Answers need to be appropriate to the question asked, simple!

--------------------
Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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Thank you new
      #352241 - 11/16/09 03:20 PM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

IBS is an equal opportunity syndrome. It strike brainy people too. We may have a slightly different way of selecting methods for managing our symptoms.

It seems to me that those who aren't interested in the technical stuff can just ignore it. So simple. Oh well!

--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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We have the IBS research library forum here on the boards... new
      #352242 - 11/16/09 03:52 PM
HeatherAdministrator

Reged: 12/09/02
Posts: 7799
Loc: Seattle, WA

which is where I post all the abstracts I can find that are relevant to IBS. And I'm always happy to have someone email a link to a study I've missed, and I'll add it as well.

We had a survey a while back asking if people would like a "Science and IBS" board and I think two people said yes and everyone else said no.

My best suggestion here is to just not read the posts that deal with topics that don't interest you, or from posters who don't interest you.

There might even be a way to block viewing posts from specific posters - check the technical FAQ for that.

In general, once you know someone is always beating a drum you don't want to hear it should be pretty easy to just not bother clicking into their posts. I certainly have no problem with people feeling completely free to do that.

XXOO
H

--------------------
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Re: We have the IBS research library forum here on the boards... new
      #352245 - 11/16/09 03:58 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


Thanks so much Heather. There are several I would like to block who seem to interfere with chats you are having with a specific person. Even if you state in your subject line that it is specifically for that person, they will interrupt, when they are aware you don't want to hear from them.

A block option would be wonderful. So would a direct message. I will take a look at the block.

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Re: We have the IBS research library forum here on the boards... new
      #352247 - 11/16/09 04:14 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

Heather, 'no looking at' a response can be rather difficult to do when the title is directed to me as a specific member posting. It would be far better if they (such person or persons) simply posted a thread in the research library and directed to me there in a hyperlink. Then I can choose whether I want to go there or not. Usually, I don't. I'm not a 'rocket scientist', I'm simply looking for practical answers and application of what is already known about overcoming and controlling daily symptoms in a practical way, while seeking some relief through kind words of encouragement.



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*Chuckles*!!! nt new
      #352248 - 11/16/09 04:18 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California



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Re: How does all this research help us through our daily lives with IBS? new
      #352249 - 11/16/09 04:23 PM
shawneric

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon

How many people here think IBS is a diagnoses of exclusion?

Why is that important and it is very important? Talk about something driving anxiety!

There are also new people and older BB memebers, some new might not know anything at all about IBS, while other might know quite a bit.

"I feel like I have very little power or control over this condition"

This is a pretty common issue and statement from IBSers.

Some of the information being posted when you try to understand it some, and granted it takes time and at first can be overwelming, gives you more power and control over the condition, a better understanding of your condition/s and that in itself makes a big difference to actual symptoms and new treatments to try and the reasons to try them through evidence based medicine.

There is a direct link to emotions and suffering in IBS, fear, antispatory anxiety, anxiety and even frustration, blame and many others. So how can you make that better, so it causes less symptoms?????

from the experts.

"psychophysiological arousal is the core of treating functional gi disorders. There is so much distress, anxiety, antisipatory anxiety, and negative reaction to symptoms, that calming the mind and body often makes a significant difference to symptoms."

These aren't "cures" but tools. The above is not "all in the head" it how the whole person physically works, both at the gut level and brain, both react. There are chemical reasons behind this and even structural cell issues in the gut.

These are as important as foods in IBS and actually trigger some of the same cells in the gut foods can as well as other bodily processes.

IBS and Post Infectious IBS are and have been demonstrated to be brain gut axis disorders for at least five years now and the brain-gut axis is a critical component in IBS.

Why is that and what does it mean to anyone who has IBS and to treatments?

One is "point out that therapeutic options for patients with IBS should focus on treating both the hypersensitive gut and the hypersensitive CNS"

If a GI doctor recommends you see a psychologist and try CBT or HT or therpay for IBS for example, it doesn't mean IBS is not real or "all in your head" that is a major misconception.

ask the experts
Why see a Psychologist when the Diagnosis is IBS? - S. Weinland

Many people experience distress and anxiety when their doctor makes a recommendation that they see a psychologist.
This reaction often comes from the belief that a referral to a psychologist carries with it assumptions about symptoms
being "all in your head" or the result of "mental illness". These are two of the biggest misconceptions about the
practice of psychology in a medical setting, and they can often stand in the way of patients achieving a meaningful
reduction in symptoms. In this column, I hope to dispel some of these misconceptions around psychology in a medical
setting, and in doing so communicate a few of the benefits you might be able to achieve in working with a psychologist
to address your symptoms of IBS.
First things first, your physical problems are real! If your doctor gives you a recommendation to meet with a psychologist it does not mean that the symptoms are "all in your head" or the result of "mental illness."

http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/psychandIBS.pdf

Many people are not getting ALL the help they need and can use because of IBS misconceptions and bad IBS information. I don't mean from Heathers BB, but in life in general.

The fact they don't know the exact causes or cause, doesn't mean they know absolutely nothing about it. They have been researching it for a long time now and have found a lot of things wrong and not working right, especially in the last ten years and ways to improve the condition.

small study and there are important issues here however.

Development of an educational intervention for patients with Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS) – a pilot study

"Results
Twelve IBS patients were included. The patients were overall satisfied with the IBS school. In line with this, the gastrointestinal symptoms, HRQOL, and perceived knowledge about IBS improved significantly after the education.

Conclusion
An IBS school seems to be a proper method to meet the patients' need of information about IBS and also to improve the patients' gastrointestinal symptoms, HRQOL, and knowledge about IBS. Further controlled studies are now needed in larger numbers of patients to confirm these preliminary results in order to implement this intervention in clinical practice."

There symptoms improved significantly.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-230X/9/10

The above is not the only study to show improvement in symptoms from education.

also

Before pulling out your prescription pad, experts say, the best way to treat a patient with irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) is to first view him or her as a whole person.

http://www.acpinternist.org/archives/2009/11/ibs.htm

The above sounds holitic to me, more so then some alternative practioners that call IBS "any gi symptom" and infections and diagnose people with issues aren't IBS. Again there are very specific clustering of symptoms to diagnose IBS. From that they rarely find an organic underlying reason, 5% or less and they check back long term to see if the diagnoses stays the same years later.

These can also help you talk to your doctor better and establish a better doctor pateint relationship and better treatments or that your doctor isn't helping and to find a new doctor.

Frygirl, I am trying to explain somethings to you that will quite possibly help you with your IBS or anyone with IBS.

Here is a study that will help kids for example. This isn't technical, the reasons behind it are however.

"In the group that used guided imagery, the children reported that the CDs were easy and enjoyable to use. In that group, 73.3 percent reported that their abdominal pain was reduced by half or more by the end of the treatment course. Only 26.7 percent in the standard medical care only group achieved the same level of improvement. This increased to 58.3 percent when guided imagery treatment was offered later to the standard medical care only group. In both groups combined, these benefits persisted for six months in 62.5 percent of the children.

The study concluded that guided imagery treatment plus medical care was superior to standard medical care alone for the treatment of functional abdominal pain, and that treatment effects were sustained over a long period."

http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/tilburg_in_the_news.htm

73.3 percent reported that their abdominal pain was reduced by half or more. That is a good thing for children is it not? I wish someone knew this and told me this some 39 years ago. If you quite a drug it quites working on your symptoms,if you eat the wrong things the symptoms can be triggered, but it really means something if after your done with a treatment it is sustained for longer periods of time. That means something and is important.

Treatments work better when you understand why they work and what they are working on or why they are even suggested for a person to try. Another example are antideppressants which they may give at a low does for IBS to work at the gut level, not because your doctor thinks your crazy and its all in your head, but because it can help regulate serotonin at the gut level-improve symptoms- and at the same time decrease anxiety in the brain that also triggers the gut. The gut can trigger the brain distress and the brain can trigger the guts distress.

This is actually what they call the "vicious cycle" in IBS.

There is also mild, moderate and severe IBS. IN mild IBS they might not need to know about it as much or do as much for it, as it goes to moderate treatments change and even more so to severe.

What is the actual reason behind eating small meals in IBS? What happens to gut physilogy in IBS when you eat big meals? What triggers the symptoms and why does eating smaller ones actually help symptoms as opposed to big meals?

Not everyone knows the reason for the above issue and knowing it can help your symptoms.

These are practical information aspect for IBSers they can physically use to decrease the symptoms.

Many people suffer more IBS symptoms, because they don't understand IBS to begin with or they can even be trying to treat the wrong problems, because they don't understand the basics in the first place and heance spend tons of money on all kinds of things with little help to the symptoms.


I have seen people complain, not here so much, they know nothing about IBS. IBS is every gi symptom and a "garbage diagnoses" and complain and then do nothing to try to understand what they do already know about it. Go to doctor after doctor to "find the cause", then go alternative routes where they will usally diagnose you with something or another and call it IBS, worry more it may lead to cancer or get worse, call it things it is not, not take the research seriously and have seen people understand more and apply the information to treating the symptoms get better, through multiple treatment options.

I have has severe IBS for 39 years from dysentary from Mexico and helped thousands of IBSers. I understand how bad this condition is and certainly can sympathize GREATLY with the frustrations about it all. Heather's book first year IBS also helps explain a lot of these complex issues. Eating for IBS helps people understand diet and IBS.

Were all here to help and share experinces, but the research and recent advancements in it, is also important and can personally help peoples symptoms.

I think personally there is more to it then just telling each other our symptoms and giving sympathy, although that is important too. But that gets old as well.

again how many people know there is a "brain in the gut" and what that means to IBS.

The Surprising Link Between Mood and Digestion

http://www.ahealthyme.com/article/primer/101186767

I was trying to point out something here that can directly help IBS.

"The stress alarm

Whatever messages may be passing back and forth, they can easily become garbled in times of stress. When the brain senses a threat, real or imagined, it sounds the alarm by flooding the body with adrenaline and another hormone called CRF (short for corticotropin-releasing factor). These hormones trigger the "fight or flight" response -- helpful back in the days when humans had to run from lions, but a potential liability when we lose a job or go through a divorce.

If you suffer from frequent emotional distress -- perhaps because of extreme stress, depression, or anxiety -- the unrelenting flood of adrenaline and CRF will take a toll on your digestive system. For one thing, the hormones can make the cells in the stomach and intestines extra-sensitive to pain. As a result, normal contractions and movements can become excruciating. The new signals can also disrupt the motion of the intestines, causing bouts of constipation or diarrhea."

When you feel pain come on or d come on or symptoms, your brain senses that as a "threat" via the "fight or flight" response. Most people are totally unawre of this reaction, in fact its hard wired to the brain for saftey of the organism in all animals. This is differnt then most people understanding of stress and how it all works.

But everyone can do something physically about the reaction and this physically helps the symptoms, especially d and pain. It is also one reason why some people feel nausea when under an IBS attack.

I wish all this information could be summed up into a small paragraph everyone could understand right away and use the information on their symptoms, but that is not reality, its all too complex. However its well known the more you know about your condition the better you can treat it and understand it and work with your doctor and cause less worry, anxiety and fear and heance less symptoms, from understanding diet, to stressors, both mental and physical, to hormones, inflammation, gut bacteria and all of the factors in IBS being researched from every angle and multiple professions and from some seriously smart, caring and understanding researchers, who are working very hard to find answers and really care about everyone.










--------------------
My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com


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That is a good suggestion, and one I hope posters will follow.. new
      #352250 - 11/16/09 04:24 PM
HeatherAdministrator

Reged: 12/09/02
Posts: 7799
Loc: Seattle, WA

just posting a link to a study is FAR preferable than posting a lengthy study itself in a post. A single sentence should summarize just about anything, and then readers would know at a glance if they want to follow the link and read the whole thing - or not.

- H

--------------------
Heather is the Administrator of the IBS Message Boards. She is the author of Eating for IBS and The First Year: IBS, and the CEO of Heather's Tummy Care. Join her IBS Newsletter. Meet Heather on Facebook!

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butting in... new
      #352252 - 11/16/09 04:39 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota

I think the block works by certain posters not even appearing to you. It would be all the time, not just when you are in a conversation. At least that is how they work on other forums.

--------------------
IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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Re: butting in... new
      #352253 - 11/16/09 04:51 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


Ok thanks for the input Minnie.

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Re: Thank you new
      #352254 - 11/16/09 04:54 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota

Syl, your technical stuff is almost always very tolerable (considering some of the other male posters on other forums that come off as brainy but are rude and condescending. One I know has the same cut and paste extended answer about soil to anyone who asks a gardening question, no matter what it is.) And, I hope this isn't taken wrong, you have the patience to deal with some of the difficult posters that I can't always bear (of course I get PMS and you don't LOL- actually I don't have that excuse.). That is a big help. Your posts are not that long and not boring like they could be. Plus I think it is important to gradually start to increase one's technical IBS knowledge to become more well-rounded and familiar.
I feel that not really liking the technical stuff doesn't make someone less intelligent- we all have different bodies of interest. Some are more scientific and some more into language or art. So I don't want Windchimes to come off to anyone as someone who can't understand technical stuff. As I said before, there are different approaches to IBS and we all can choose our own path. As long as we are polite about it!

--------------------
IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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Re: How does all this research help us through our daily lives with IBS? new
      #352255 - 11/16/09 04:56 PM
frygurl

Reged: 08/18/09
Posts: 332


Shawneric, I appreciate your knowledge base, and I know you provide important information to educate those who don't know anything about IBS. However, I find the constant bombardment of articles and studies overwhelming and frankly anxiety provoking. I have read quite a few posts from you (many redundant, but I understand why) and others on the board that are science minded, so I feel that I have a reasonable understanding about the current western medical thinking about IBS.

I just don't take it as the gospel truth. Doctors are wrong all the time.

If I see one more piece of literature from a doctor or dietitian or other medical professional that tells me to eat more high fiber foods such as broccoli and beans, I'm going to lose it. Those foods make me feel absolutely miserable, among many other "healthy" ones.

The bottom line for me is that I believe there is more involved with our health than the physiological components and furthermore don't think western medicine has all the answers, especially when it comes to a chronic illness such as this. I speak for myself and I think a few others on this board in saying that we hear you, but respectfully request to have discussions about alternative viewpoints without being bombarded with research studies and statistics.


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Re: butting in... new
      #352256 - 11/16/09 04:57 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota

All right I could say that there is no allowance for any 'private' threads on a public forum. There are facebook and live chatting for that.

--------------------
IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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Re: How does all this research help us through our daily lives with IBS? new
      #352257 - 11/16/09 05:01 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota

When you get down to what I truly believe when it comes to medicine and IBS it is this: I only care what science says when it can reaffirm or explain something that is already working or makes sense to me (same with religion and science for that matter). Some things are so obvious after awhile with IBS that if medicine disagrees with them I don't need it, but when it backs up things like the recent acknowledgment that soluble fiber is better for IBS than insoluble, well that is science I can use!

--------------------
IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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For Shawneric new
      #352259 - 11/16/09 05:09 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

Wouldn't it be best to simply respond with something like "Perhaps this link might be of interest to you"??? rather than filling pages of information into the actual technical information about the whys of the problem in another's post?

Some people simply need some sympathy and a place to start feeling better with some basic information about overcoming symptoms. People like myself don't need lectures, just common sense as to the tried and true ways to get back on track and stay there with simple dietary and lifestyle changes.

I admit that I am female and 'right-brained', meaning I have to go through a process of communication and sorting out that 'left-brained' others who want to delve into how my problem came to be. This doesn't matter to me at this point, I'm only seeking relief from some very painful symptoms in the present which relate to simply eating healthy and nutritious foods to sustain my life force and go from there.

I've asked you not to respond to my posts, and I would very much appreciate it if you would respect that. Lack of respect causes stress, and can also be a trigger for IBS. I know, as I've had a lifetime of this and now am learning to choose my friends and to whom I listen to at appropriate times.

I'm sorry and apologize if this wound's your ego, yet I DO have to take care of myself in practical ways and ways that work for me. I'm not responsible for anyone else's feelings. Feelings are not facts.



--------------------
Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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Re: butting in... new
      #352260 - 11/16/09 05:12 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


Yep, you are right about that. However, many of us know each other fairly well and where we are coming from, so I think it would be polite to acknowledge that before responding to someone.

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Thanks Littleminnie! nt new
      #352261 - 11/16/09 05:13 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California



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Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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Re: For Shawneric new
      #352262 - 11/16/09 05:21 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


Windchimes, Heather just addressed this issue. Since, block or direct message doesn't work, and as Minnie pointed out, it is a public forum, just don't open the post when you see who the poster is. I know it's hard, but it will resolve the problem and all of the tension created.

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Re: How does all this research help us through our daily lives with IBS? new
      #352263 - 11/16/09 05:23 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


OMG ditto well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Looks like I opened up a can of worms! new
      #352265 - 11/16/09 05:28 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

Well I may have unintentionally opened up a can of worms. However Littleminnie would appreciate the value of worms in the garden. Perhaps this 'garden' needs some weeding and a few more worms tilling the soil and making it more fertile for that which grows and thrives out of it.

I've forever been a natural born encourager and healer to others, though I no longer accept lack of respect. It took me a long time to get where I am today. Even so, I need the help of others with this IBS thing. I'm not God. I alone do not have the answers and am learning what works for me through others here.

Thanks to all who have inputed some reasonable and practical ideas, and provided some humor along the way too. Again, laughter is a great stress reducer and that's a good thing for IBS sufferers!

--------------------
Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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Re: Looks like I opened up a can of worms! new
      #352266 - 11/16/09 05:32 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


You know, that is funny! I have seen this happen before. Sometimes the most innocent question or reply will spark a serious debate. You crack me up, Windchimes. I bet your IBS improves before the scientifically minded. lol

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For Gerikat... new
      #352267 - 11/16/09 05:36 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

One can avoid someone else forever, yet the answer is to ask them for respect and insist on it. It is not at all respectful for someone to keep responding to another's posts with technical information when they have been asked not to. This goes for anything in life.

This is all about personal BOUNDARIES! If not respected, then the other party is into CONTROL by persisting in what they have been asked not to do. That's when it is time to STONEWALL them, or go elsewhere for support.

--------------------
Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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For Gerikat... new
      #352268 - 11/16/09 05:40 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

YEP, I feel better today than I have in more than a week! Haven't eaten a darned thing today, cleansing my system with water only. I've gotten a lot off of my chest too!

Frygurl has my direct email address and I've given her permission to give it to you.

Take care!

--------------------
Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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Re: For Shawneric new
      #352269 - 11/16/09 05:43 PM
shawneric

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon

Funny what your saying here is not what you did in your intial post by saying research studies are worthless and doctors are no help?

That is not just talking about diet and practical help.

I didn't see you ask me not to respond to your posts, but won't repond to you directly anymore.

I wasn't lecturing you at all, I was pointing out flaws in your posts however. It does not hurt my feelings. In fact I was trying to help you and all people with IBS.

basic information

Living with IBS

http://www.iamibs.org/site/living-with-ibs

Facts About IBS

http://www.aboutibs.org/site/about-ibs/facts-about-ibs

Sorry if the accurate information did not help you and bothered you instead.

While you do that I am actively promoting IBS awareness and helping IBSers and IBS research, so I am actually working for you.

However, what you wrote in the intial post had some good and some bad information to IBSers and then I will speak out.

To tell IBSers doctors and studies are worthless, especially when you don't want to bother with them personally is bad IBS information.

I will respect not posting directly to you.



--------------------
My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com


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Re: For Gerikat... new
      #352270 - 11/16/09 05:44 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


Yes, I agree. I said something along those lines in another post. But, it seems it isn't going that way. I was trying to decrease your stress somewhat.

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Re: For Shawneric new
      #352272 - 11/16/09 05:48 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


Shawn, you are a wealth of knowledge and I respect you for that. You seem to have studied IBS thoroughly. But, I would like to just see one post from you without a link. Just chat with us one on one, human to human, without one link in your post. Could you do that, just one time?

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Re: For Shawneric new
      #352273 - 11/16/09 05:54 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

I never had anything but the experience that doctors are of no help with IBS, and reading research studies do not help one get over a major flare of IBS.

Frankly, I do not need someone like you to point out 'flaws' in my posts. I never invited you to be my editor nor my personal keeper, seeking out my flaws. To invite yourself to do such is a very CONTROLLING attitude on your part.

Please avoid the temptation to respond to my posts as previously requested. I would very much appreciate this. Be respectful and respond to those who can ID with you and benefit from your information.

--------------------
Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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Gerikat - Human Compassion new
      #352276 - 11/16/09 06:06 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

Gerikat... What you are saying here is that some of us simply need 'Human Compassion' expressed, absent all of that temporal textbook stuff.



--------------------
Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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Re: For Shawneric new
      #352278 - 11/16/09 06:15 PM
shawneric

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon

I am going to say again, telling IBSers that doctors are no help and research on IBS is of no help is flawed. There is evidence based medicine for IBS. The majority of IBSers can be helped, it takes time and education. This is not controlling its a fact. It maybe your personal experiences, perhaps because you haven't taken the time to understand the reasons. You personally may mistrust your doctor or doctors or don't agree with them or how they have treated you personally or they have not been helpful to you personally, or your personal doctors are not up to date on modern IBS research, or your not working with them, who knows, but the blanket statement is flawed. This is not helpful to IBSers.

I haven't been rude to anyone, in fact I am trying to help but am getting attacked and comments directed at me for supplying accurate information, which I then have explained from reliable resources. Although some of it has been long which I understand, I try to be thorough with it and on topic. Funny out of all that I did supply, not one comment on the importance of any of it.

Why not try posting about how important a good doctor pateint relatioship is in regards to IBS? Do you know why its important and how you can make the relationship better?

Try addressing why you feel doctors are of no help and I will let the researchers know to cancel all IBS research, because its not helping you personally?

I won't respond to you again.


--------------------
My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com


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Shawneric you just won't give up and show respect! nt new
      #352279 - 11/16/09 06:19 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California



--------------------
Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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Attn Heather! new
      #352280 - 11/16/09 06:24 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


I think it is time for Heather to lock this thread. It is going on way too long and getting pretty mean-spirited, with many getting their feelings hurt. It's time to end it.

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Re: Gerikat - Human Compassion new
      #352281 - 11/16/09 06:44 PM
shawneric

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon

I can't address windchimes.

It is exactly compassion why I have been helping IBSers for the last ten years with accurate information from reliable resources like the UNC and major IBS research centers and the IFFGD and working extremely hard at it all.

I certainly don't have to do it, but I do it because I know how badly people with IBS suffer, especially since mine has majorally impacted my entire life. I sympathize and empathize with all IBSers to the core.
Although I may not say it enough.

I am working behind the scenes for more IBS research, more accurate IBS information, more legitimizing IBS as a "real disorder" and way more then most will ever know. That is not for a pity party for me either. To me it is and was the right thing for me to do.

I feel somewhat its more important to get to the facts and try to physically help people, as well as show support and compassion. Don't misunderstand that supplying reliable expert IBS information as a lack of compassion to IBSers.

I have spent a good deal of my life and a lot of my own money helping all IBSers that I can and have helped thousands maybe ten of thousands get better or at least understand things a little better.

Gerikat, I certainly can, but this post in general started off with good and bad information and some very bad information and I spoke up about it and tried to show why it was wrong. Some people didn't like that responce to their post. If there are things wrong with my information anyone can point it out to me and they have already pointed out it was long. I get that already. There was a lot that needed to be said and why it needed to be said and took a lot of information and evidence to say it.

It easy to just say things, its a lot harder to back them up with some evidence. That all took a lot of my time. Yet it all seems like I could have been doing something else with my time, after seeing the responces.

Its interesting nobody I saw at least, concured a good doctor patient relationship is very important in IBS. Although I know some here nknow how important it really is in IBS. I just had a super bad doctor problem, which took months to resolve and now I am seeing a new one and it made a world of differnce personally. Like night and day. I will probably get the experinced published, next year.

That doctors are unhelpful, that research is unhelpful, that trying to understand IBS personally is unhelpful, is unhelpful to all IBSers and to the cause.



--------------------
My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com


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Re: Gerikat - Human Compassion new
      #352282 - 11/16/09 06:51 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


Shawn, I wasn't the one who mentioned compassion. That would be Windchimes.

I know you are trying to help, and thanks for the post without a link.

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Re: Shawneric you just won't give up and show respect! nt new
      #352283 - 11/16/09 06:51 PM
shawneric

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon

Show me where I disrespected you personally? Where is it?

I already stated I won't reply to you anymore.

I have just been answering posts directed to me.

It to bad we don't spend more time on the actual IBS information and less on this.



--------------------
My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com


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Re: Gerikat - Human Compassion new
      #352284 - 11/16/09 06:54 PM
shawneric

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon

I know, but I can't address windchimes.

Gerikat, so you know a lot of times I post the link or the info, because then I don't personally corrupt the information trying to explain it or by getting it wrong with wording or my own personal bias.



--------------------
My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com


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Re: Gerikat - Human Compassion new
      #352287 - 11/16/09 07:06 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


Oh Ok, gotcha. Yes, I understand Shawn. No hard feelings coming from me. I was getting a bit aggravated earlier, but in the scheme of things...not a big deal. I guess some of us are more research oriented and others (like yours truly), fly by the seat of their pants.

I believe there is room for both here. I guess we all need to know when to pull back a little for a little breathing room.

I asked Heather to lock the thread because I thought it was going on too long and was getting a bit mean. But, things seemed to have calmed down now.

So, all is well.

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Re: Gerikat - Human Compassion new
      #352289 - 11/16/09 07:14 PM
shawneric

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon

I am calm Gerikat. I don't attack people personally. Its about information.

I posted again to you in the HT forum so you know. I have extensivly worked with Mike and done more research on HT for IBS then basically anyone on the planet, other then actual studies themselves. I researched it for myself, but for others and just in general, not just for IBS either, but for medical conditions in general and how it works, how it may work and what it can do and be used for in IBS and in medicine in general. Your doing well so you know.





--------------------
My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com


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Re: Gerikat - Human Compassion new
      #352292 - 11/16/09 07:20 PM
Gerikat

Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285


Yes, I saw that on the hypno board. I replied there.



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Re: Attn Heather! new
      #352293 - 11/16/09 07:39 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

I support the closing of this post, and agree that it is not serving any meaningful purpose at this point in time.

It would be sad to think that future 'newcomers' would possibly think this is the way to handle simple questions and reasonable responses, absent a 'family' debate or argument(s). Most members on this board are actually extremely kind and considerate, sharing where they can, when they can, great info, and asking honest and sincere questions, depending upon where they are in their own stage of recovery (symptom management).

The last thing anyone needs is lectures and/or criticism while they travel their own personal path to managing IBS symptoms.



--------------------
Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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Re: Attn Heather! new
      #352296 - 11/16/09 07:54 PM
shawneric

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon

Windchimes, so you know I use to be a moderator here and am in Heathers books. I posted an applogy to you if I upset you. I will also respect not posting to you personally anymore. This is the last one

However, you have your analysis of what happened on your thread and I have mine. I certainly don't come here just to argue with anyone, because I get any pleasure from it. Not at all.

You don't know me, but I am extremely kind, considerate, sharing, and have been supplying good information for close to ten years to IBSers, run IBS websites, and more on IBS then you will ever know about. I have been majorally involved in the IBS communities for close to ten years. Perhaps things went sideways or we may just disagree. Again I will leave you alone though.

Hope you find your personal answers.



--------------------
My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com


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Attn shawneric new
      #352300 - 11/16/09 08:15 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

Thank you shawneric. I have replied to you under your other post, directed to me.

Take care and be well!

--------------------
Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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Re: Nonsense versus Horse Sense... new
      #352323 - 11/17/09 10:52 AM
vettech

Reged: 06/08/08
Posts: 328
Loc: ME

Ok, my 2 cents.

You know "sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't"? I appreciate all new information. I'm scientifically inclined, so I appreciate the research and the "why's".

But like some others, when I'm tired and/or hurting I'm not in the mood for it. So you know what I do? I DON'T LOOK AT IT! But I still appreciate having it there for future reference if needed. Or maybe not. But why in the world would I attack someone for posting the information? None of this makes any sense to me.

Not everyone communicates or looks at things in the same way - I thought that was the point of having a forum such as this. If one can't appreciate that, maybe they're the one with the problem.

--------------------
IBS-A and GERD since 1983
Low FODMAP since 2012

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Shawn... Why can't you address me? new
      #352840 - 11/28/09 04:27 PM
Windchimes

Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California

Shawn,

You can address me anytime! It is not necessary to to a 'work-around' through another member (poster).

I would like you to know that my computer is quite antequated, and I would prefer to save articles via hyperlinks rather than store pages of articles on my computer, for obvious reasons. I don't have any significant amount of computer memory for storing all of these articles, though do have a folder where I save hyperlinks to various meaningful articles.

I do hope you can understand. I was not asking you to not respond to my posts (misunderstanding), I was simply wanting you to provide hyperlinks as opposed to pages of text response.

I'm not your enemy at all, and your work in research is appreciated. Please do lighten up a little here, and if you have a clarity question, please do ask me. Men and women often have different ways of communicating, and often miss the point.

I apologize if you actually thought you couldn't respond to my posts at all... I intended that you respond in a different way. Some of us don't have time to read all you post and then copy/paste the entire article on our computers, but would like to save articles for later reading via hyperlink rather than taking up space on our computer that seemingly bogs everything down when our memory storage is getting rather full.

My best to you! You're a good guy here...

--------------------
Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff

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shawneric I emailed you some cooking questions new
      #352927 - 12/02/09 09:27 AM

Unregistered




check your junk mail in case it went in there,I hope you don't mind me asking some questions. it was about spices/spagetti.

also I made heather's Winter Squash & White Bean Soup REALLY GOOD,even better pureed,tastes so rich and creamy.
http://www.helpforibs.com/news/newsletter/butsq113004.html

Edited by aperson (12/02/09 09:30 AM)

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Re: Nonsense versus Horse Sense...windchimes new
      #353114 - 12/10/09 10:00 AM
skh

Reged: 08/05/09
Posts: 151


why don't u just skip over the posts that irritate you instead of continuing to argue about them??..just a thought...

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