Re: Renee
#352049 - 11/12/09 07:59 AM
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Syl
Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA
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Yes - I have read some of his work. I found it interesting but an old school way of thinking. This make sense given his age (86?) and the thinking at the time he received his professional training. Generally speaking his talks about the mind-body connection and the known phenomena of somatization particularly as it pertains to back, neck and limb pain. It is along stretch from muscular pain to IBS. The big problem with his research is that is difficult to use clinical trials with psychosomatic illnesses so there is no way to prove or disprove his idea 
Psychological stress may trigger HPA dysfunction in those predisposed to it but it is unlikely to be the cause. Also, there is no doubt psychological stress contributes to IBS but there is little if any evidence that it is the cause.
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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I am sorry Syl, but you just don't get it. I am going to try to move the discussion to another spot, for those that are interested in discussing the book. These boards really aren't the right place.
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There are many things in life that cannot be proven or disproven, seen or unseen. I absolutely believe that trauma CAUSED my IBS, and I think others on this board feel the same. That is why I am going to move the discussion to somewhere else, so that we can discuss it without the naysayers jumping in.
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Re: Renee
#352106 - 11/13/09 06:26 PM
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Windchimes
Reged: 09/05/09
Posts: 581
Loc: Northern California
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Syl,
Is it possible that you might be confusing psychosomatic symptoms with real gut-brain messages that are actually inaccurate, and hence a physiological response to the body's own temporal mis-communication? I think so!
Such things CAN be caused by past traumas where the subconscious mind buried messages that affect bodily responses and function.
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Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff
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Re: Renee
#352109 - 11/13/09 07:09 PM
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Syl
Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA
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Windchimes,
You asked a very interesting question.
Stress and anxiety from trauma, and the mind in general, can affect physiological responses. Hypnotherapy, mediation and a variety of other things illustrate this point.
Research suggests that IBS is caused by a physiological miscommunication in the complex gut-brain signaling processes.
There is physiological evidence illustrating that GI infection can cause 'post infectious IBS' that may or may not correct itself within 5 years. And there is further physiological evidence seen in the effect that the ebb and flow of hormones, composition of the colonic microflora and malabsorption of short chained carbohydrates have on the gut-brain communication processes.
There is no evidence that psychological experiences 'cause' physiological miscommunication producing IBS. However, there is evidence to suggest that psychological experience may precipitate IBS perhaps by exacerbating or modulating pre-existing gut-brain physiological miscommunication processes.
It is difficult, if not impossible, to show a direct causal relationships between negative psychological experiences and physiological gut-brain miscommunication to 'cause' IBS.
In many ways after you have IBS the cause is somewhat irrelevant. One's time is better focused on developing tools for managing the symptoms. 
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Syl, it's clear to me that you believe medical science may one day understand the physiological process and be able to cure IBS. And from what I've read of your responses, you only believe something works if there is a research study to prove that it does.
It is my belief that one of the reasons medical science cannot explain nor effectively treat chronic illnesses such as IBS and Fibromyalgia, as well as chronic pain, is because they are going in the wrong direction. That much is obvious to me in my personal experiences with medical doctors (not to mention hearing from so many others about their experiences with medical doctors) who tell us things like eat more roughage, take this drug that is likely to cause you more problems in the way of side effects and do very little to actually treat your symptoms, and so on.
They spend no time whatsoever discussing your personal history, or looking at you as anything more than a bunch of parts working together to form a complex machine. Just the lack of a holistic view of health alone is the wrong direction as far as I am concerned.
Humans are not just machines, we experience complex emotions that affect our bodies in a multitude of ways. No one will deny that our bodies produce a physiological response when we get embarrassed or nervous, angry or scared. Emotions are driving those responses. When you look at what we experience throughout our lives, it really is no wonder that people are stew of emotions.
It is difficult for medical researchers to study how emotions create physiological health problems, at least in the objective way that pharmaceutical studies are done, using a placebo and all. But medical studies are also not the be all, end all in giving us answers about our health either. They often produce contradictory results. How many times have we heard drinking wine is good for us, only to find it is in fact bad for us, then it is good again?
What about thousands of patients in a clinical setting who heal from incredible chronic pain and illness through psychological treatment, when physiological treatment did very little for their suffering? Does that not give us evidence that the source of their pain is psychological in nature?
Until western medicine truly sees a human being as a mindbody entity, and accept that our life struggles and emotional pain have a direct impact on our health, I don't believe they will find the 'cure' for IBS.
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Re: Renee
#352119 - 11/14/09 05:14 AM
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Syl
Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA
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Frygurl,
Your comments are insightful and eloquently written.
Your assumptions about my thinking are generally correct. I refuse to fall back into dark ages with the trap of old school thinking that IBS is 'all in our heads'. This is the sort of out dated thinking about the mind-body interaction that once claimed diseases such schizophrenia were the result of up bringing and childhood psychological trauma. Over the past 30 years these ideas about schizophrenia have been discarded in favor of a physiological model where faulty neuronal development in the fetal brain develops into a full-blown illness in late adolescence or early adulthood. These new physiological understandings are the result of new insights from Western and Eastern medicine.
Thankfully, over the past 15 years IBS has been slowing moving from the murky shadows of a psychological disorder into the full light of physiological disorder. IBS isn't 'in our heads' it is 'in our bodies'.
I do strongly believe that a variety of psychological therapies are very powerful tools for managing IBS. Each of us has to choose which of these tools best reduces stress and anxiety to manage IBS. I have learned, practiced and taught a few of these techniques. I wish you the best of luck in finding some good psychological tools that will work for you too.
Good luck
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Frygirl, don't waste your breath. We need to discuss it elsewhere.
It's not about being "all in your head". That is NOT what the book is about. And it IS about being "in the body" as he well recognizes. People that think that are NOT understanding his message. Too bad for you.
So, let us move it somewhere so that we can discuss it without interruption.
As you get towards the end of the book, there are two other books mentioned.
The book gets better and better and is so true!
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Renee, Frygirl and I are discussing a book we are reading. It is best that we take the discussion to another forum. Don't bother debating or arguing. It is a waste of your breath. Some are set in their ways.
If you want to read the book and join in the conversation, we will let you know where to come to have a discussion.
Most of us reading the book believe and UNDERSTAND Dr. Sarno's message. There is no debate for us, as some here want to encourage us to do.
So, just hang tight and save your breath.
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I thought the living room was for any subject that didn't fit the other boards, so discussion about this book seems appropriate. I'm reading the book now and totally agree with what Sarno is saying.
I've tried the IBS diet and at times it works and has been a lifesaver, and at other times it doesn't. Right now I'm going through a spell that has more to do with my anxiety and stress and supressed anger than anything I'm eating.
The gut is considered the "second brain," so it makes sense to me that if we're holding on to frightening emotions or thoughts, it's going to change our gut chemistry and give symptoms.
Yesterday my naturopath had me go to the center of my pain, and ask it what it's feeling, what it needs, and so on. M pain level went down from an 8 to a 5, and I was able to eat solid food without problem at dinner. I definitely think there's validity to what Sarno is saying, and for those of us still struggling is spite of following the diet, it might be worth considering other approaches (hypnosis, therapy, Sarno's approach, etc.)
I knew a woman who had such crippling back pain that when she flew anywhere she had to purchase three tickets so she could lay flat the whole time, and when she attended meetings she lay down on the floor. She read Sarno's book "Mind Over Back Pain" and just by reading the book her pain went away. Our brains are amazing,and I'm finding the whole field of neuroscience fascinating.
Another interesting book I recommend is "Evolve Your Brain" by Joe Dispenza, which goes into the science of how we can literally change our minds by building new connections in the brain. It explains how thoughts can create chemical reactions that keep us addicted to patterns and feelings. It's possible, he says, to not only change these patterns, but also reprogram and evolve the brain and heal our bodies. Fascinating.
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