In the army now
#258322 - 04/15/06 11:55 AM
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Stephie
Reged: 03/10/04
Posts: 2696
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
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Hi everyone,
So I just thought I would pop in again and give a little update.
Things, as always, are pretty chaotic and getting me down a lot.
Things for Adrian in Canada have not gone well over the past year, and I think he is finally ready to call it a day here.
He got a letter from the Vancouver Police saying he was "terminated", which means he can never get any policing job in Canada (according to them, I think it might just be Vancouver and they are saying that to seem more important but whatever) which really upset him. Then he got a correction letter saying, "No, sorry, wrong letter, you have been CLOSED, not terminated". Closed means he has to wait 2 years, but can then apply again.
He is so tired of working in security and struggling for money month to month whilst working crazy overtime shifts and not having time to do other things.
He has found out that even if he goes back to England now, he will have a hard time with work because he has been out of the country so long and for the kind of work he was in (intelligence), they are very strict about security and you must have been in the country for no more than I think 60 days in the past 3 years.
So now he has put forward his interest to join the Army. The British Army.
I have never wanted to voice too many strong opinions on this board or anything, so I say this just so you guys understand where I am at and not to have anyone agree or disagree with me but I have strong feelings about the army that would mean that I could never be in a relationship with anyone who would voluntarily enlist. It's not just a fundamental problem that I have, but the thought of being an "Army wife" makes me feel like I might throw up. I am nervous person, and that would just ruin me completely.
Plus, I would be in England where I would be more seperated than I am here so when I need someone to lean on, it would be him... and where would he be? Well, who knows? Iraq, possibly? No way, no thanks.
So I found this out yesterday, and I couldn't stop crying. My head is just pounding. Every time I think about it, I feel like I might just lose it completely.. my lunch included.
I had no idea this was one of his options, but after pressing him about it, it is apparently his serious option now. He said he didn't want to discuss it with me at length when he made the decision because it would be too "distressing" for me.
I am kind of in shock at the moment, I just don't know what will happen.
I was ready to prepare myself for having to choose between staying in Canada without him, and going with him to England but I was not prepared for this.
To make matters more confusing, my parents want to put their house (which we are living in now) up for sale at the end of this month, which is fast approaching.
We have been looking like crazy (Well, I have) for a place to live but it is so hard with the dog, being that he is a large dog. Most places that will let us have him, are way out of our price range.
Adding to that, if Adrian leaves to join the army and I stay here, I won't be able to stay in a place that we have rented for the 2 of us, so I have that in the back of my mind as well.
I am pretty sure it is all this that made my stomach so bad and I had to post two days ago about being late for work 'cause I couldn't stop tummy attacks.
It seems like whenever I think that things are as stressful as they can get for the moment, and I start to try and figure out how I'll deal with it all, something else comes up and kicks me right in the butt!
My mom has been really hard on me about the whole thing, and I haven't even mentioned this whole new "army" idea. Oy.
Oy, oy, oy.
Any feedback, or just hugs would be appreciated.
Cheers!
Steph
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~~I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell-I know right now you can't tell~~Matchbox 20
IBS-D,pain.
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Sometimes we all have to make these choices and it seems like we have no time to consider the options. I think in your situation the only thing I would consider is can I or can I not live without this person? I'm a strong believer in following your heart. Everything else will fall into place either way. Of course, I really don't know you or your beliefs, it's just what I would do. Whatever happens I hope that the stress dies down and you feel better. Just curious (and definately not arugmentative), what is it about the army that you don't like? Feel free to tell me it's none of my business if you don't want to share. I've felt the same way with stress before. It seems like one thing after another and if you ask what's next, you'll have the answer before you finish the question. Sometimes things are just out of our hands. Some things you just have to let unfold.
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If you're not dead, you've still got time.
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Hi there,
Thanks for your reply. I feel the same way about following your heart, and I think it is an important question about whether or not I can live without him. I mean, I'm sure I COULD in as much as I wouldn't stop living if he was gone, but I want us to stay together.
As far as the army goes, it's not that I don't think it is anyone's business it is just that I worry about offending people. I have a great deal of respect for people who want to protect their own country and families that support them doing so, but I do have my own reservations about it.
Without going into it to much, I do have... problems?... with the way things are politically in the world at the moment and I feel like sometimes people are fighting, and they don't even know what for. I don't feel that it is a matter of protecting your own country, as much as getting involved in something that maybe we shouldn't be involved in.
More than that, though, I have a problem with living without my spouse for 3 years because he is at Sandhurst and I can only living "nearby" so he can visit on weekends. I have a problem with not wanting to have children, because I won't want to be a single mom for when he is away, or if something terrible should happen. I have a problem with sitting by the phone while he is overseas and wondering if he's okay to the point of making myself sick.
I have actually done quite a lot of research on PTSD and a lot of research is done on soldiers who return from war, and it just is too much for me to imagine someone I love so much going through something like that.
I hope that makes sense. I know it sounds selfish to a degree, but it is how I feel and I don't think I can make any apologies for it. There are very few things that I would stop and put my foot down about but this is one of them.. and I never thought it would be an issue.
I really don't want to offend anyone, I hope you can understand where I am coming from.
Cheers!
--Steph
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~~I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell-I know right now you can't tell~~Matchbox 20
IBS-D,pain.
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and I feel the same way. I don't think it's selfish at all. Especially because you are taking into consideration the future of your family as a whole. Concerning the military, I think that there are too many people who want to jump into fighting without knowing why and some of them don't seem to even care why. So I understand where you're coming from on that. Even country needs a method of defense (unfortunately) but whenever possible, violence shouldn't be the method.
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If you're not dead, you've still got time.
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Thank you very much for understanding.
I really worry about saying things like this sometimes because of how it comes across, it's just that he is very precious to me and it hurts too much to even think about it.
The other thing is, I am a fragile sort of person and I think I honestly would have a break down quite regularly if I were to put myself in that position, especially because I would be in England and not in Canada so if I lost him, I would basically lose everything in a sense.
I appreciate the feedback, I am glad to know I am not the only person who feels this way.
Steph
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~~I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell-I know right now you can't tell~~Matchbox 20
IBS-D,pain.
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I feel pretty confident in saying that you're not alone. I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way.
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***********************
If you're not dead, you've still got time.
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Have you two thought of giving the Ontario job market a try? It is usually better than the other provinces, and there is a shortage of police. I think the Premier announced he was going to hire more police in the province.
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Oy indeed  I'm sorry all this is happening! For the record, I'd definitely feel the same way you do about my partner joining the army - I don't think I could do it either. (At any rate, it would definitely make me majorly reconsider some things.) I don't really have much advice, just sending lots of hugs and good thoughts right now, and hoping everything works out for the best for you (((((HUGS))))))
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Hey Steph,
Sorry to hear that you're still going through such rough times I completely understand what you are saying about the army, I wouldn't be comfortable with my fiance joining either...I don't know what I would do but I definately think the stress would wreck me (plus I feel the same way you do I think with regards to fighting without knowing why and stuff).
I don't really have any suggestions (I'm sorry) but I'm sending lots of hugs and good thoughts your way. One thing that did come to mind was just that my Dad was telling me that Alberta and Saskatechewan are currently really recruiting for a lot of jobs (mostly for smaller towns though, not the major cities). They are desperate for employees and apparently in some regions paying people who work at a Tim Horton's $12/hour whereas in Ontario you would only make minimum wage. Would you guys be willing to try a different province where maybe he'd have more job prospects?
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I thoroughly enjoyed the military life...I am not sure if there is a huge difference between the USA and your country but our 10 years in the military were full of adventure and fun...lots of great friends and experiences I wouldn't trade for the world.
I pray you find peace in your decision...whatever you decide.
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Have a blessed day!...Rachel
stable and sooooooo thankful!
I have IBS but it doesn't have me!
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I'm not sure on my feelings of military or war in general (I don't think I'm informed enough to make any judgements), but I understand your not wanting it to be a direct part of your life. I don't think I could handle it either. I freak out when my husband has to drive long distances. I'm a worrier by nature, and that would just make me crazy.
I'm sure Adrian isn't just doing this "because". He must really have a reason and really think it's his best option. I hope you can find someway to at least talk to him about it and make sure you understand. Remember that if he DOES join, your support is going to be really important to him, even if it's hard for you to give. Best wishes, Stephie....
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Stephie
#258398 - 04/16/06 07:35 AM
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TommyNY
Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 1530
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Stephie, I am sorry you and Adrian are going through such a difficult time. I can understand both of your sides. After 9/11, I called to see if I could join the Army. I wanted to kill the SOBs who hit us and killed so many people around the block from where I worked. My parents convinced me not to do it. Who knows, if I did, I might be dead or might never have met Tina. I personally think it is quite an honour to be a part of the military. My country has gotten into battles in history that it probably should not have been in (Iraq, Vietnam) but at least we will never rely on someone else to protect our interests when we are attacked.
What I am trying to say is that this a life altering decision for BOTH of you. You both should think thoroughly before you decide to do it. Adrian should think of all of the consequences if he joines the British army and you should think about the impact it will have on your life.
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I'm so sorry to say this but it may be time for you two to part ways.  It seems like you both want such different things in life.
I could never be married to a cop or an army guy. I'm a huge worry wart and I just couldn't handle the added stress. Sounds like you're the same way.
Tough decisons ahead.
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Stephie...
#259333 - 04/20/06 06:54 PM
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Augie
Reged: 10/27/04
Posts: 5807
Loc: Illinois
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How ya doing? Have there been any resolutions? I hope you are finding your answers and some peace with all this. It's a very difficult situation to be in.
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~ Beth
Constipation, pain prodominent,cramps, spasms and bloat!
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I spent some years in the military … 19 months in South East Asia. During those months in swamps and rice paddies, and elephant grass I knew that there was someone waiting for me at home. That made a difference … knowing that someday I might be able to return to a somewhat normal life. That there was at least one person in the world who cared.
Thankfully there are men and women who still feel the urge to defend their countries. God bless them!
Where would we be without them? And where would be without the families and friends that stayed home and waited for them?
You might not be a army wife, now, but you could be. In every relationship it takes work to make it happen.
But, then … I am sorry to say that I lost friends, over seas, and at home. At home, because they could not stand what I represented. And that was the reason I enlisted in the first place. To give those folks at home the opportunity to say they did not agree, and be free to speak their minds.
You certainly have a tough problem here … I lost friends that I loved, because I wanted to protect and serve.
I am sorry, but I would be afraid to have to make your kind of decision. I hope that this has not make it tougher for you … Adrian sounds like a person that you could trust and rely on the rest of your life…
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 Courage doesn’t always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, “I will try again tomorrow”. Mary Anne Radmacher
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Hi J82901, I was drafted in the fall of 1972 but did not have
to go to Vietnam because the war ending, and have always felt
guilty about that. That's probably one of the reasons I'm a
reenactor. My 19th century gunsmith up here is a Vietnam Vet,
and also has IBS. His developed after he got repaired from
stepping on a bouncing betty. Does your IBS stem from a wound
too?
Glad to hear that you served and thank you very much for
your service! Congrats on surviving, that was no easy feat.
-Pvt. Bob, Queen's 24th Regiment of Foot and the 10th Tenn-
essee Volunteers.
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<img src="http://www.math.mtu.edu/~rwkolkka/BritPicA.jpg">
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Hey Beth,
I am doing alright, I suppose. There haven't been any new developments in the situation. We tried to talk about it, but it was so upsetting that we just haven't brought it up again... although, of course, I am always thinking about it.
When he is at home, he is so miserable and unhappy. And he takes it out on me, which hurts me a lot. He isn't mean, or anything but he won't play with me or have fun with me.. just grumps around all the time.
It is our 3 year anniversary tomorrow, and he was supposed to plan a big weekend for us but he didn't... So I did. I figured it things go pear shaped, at least we will have had some good times to remember. I was so excited about it, and he was going along too but this morning when he left he was just so negative.. it might be a big waste of money (we are staying in a nice hotel, and going for dinner and to a comedy show).
So... yeah, I don't know. I am just waiting at the moment. We are going away to Mexico on the 8th of May to meet up with his whole family and we'll be with them for just about 2 weeks so I am hoping that brightens him up a little.
I'll letcha know if anything changes.
**hugs**
Thanks for thinking of me,
Steph
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~~I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell-I know right now you can't tell~~Matchbox 20
IBS-D,pain.
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Hi there,
Thanks very much for your reply. I am trying to see both sides of it at the moment, but it is really hard for me.
I just don't think I could handle the stress and loneliness of it all. It would be different if it were in Canada... sort of, well, not really.. I don't know. 
Definitely stuff to think about!
Steph
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~~I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell-I know right now you can't tell~~Matchbox 20
IBS-D,pain.
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Hi Stephie, To relax your fears some what, the British Army is
the best army in the world! Yes, even better than the US Army,
not as big, but better equiped and trained. If they weren't so
detestable, I would pity the terrorists going up against the
British Army. You needn't worry about your DH being in poor
hands. Count your blessings that it's not the Canadian Army,
what's left of it after that creten Cretin demolished it.
It's also not very likely that your DH would be deployed
to Iraq, that is a very small fraction of the Army. Because
of his security experience, he would likely be deployed in
in the UK at a sensitive military base.
As to your problem with people who enlist in the army,
likely a result of Canadian liberal propaganda. It seems
to me, from what you've described about your DH that his
views on the military should've been obvious to you since
the beginning of your relationship. I can't understand how
you missed it. Since your relationship seems otherwise fine
, I would go with his decision. Take it from me, there's
nothing to worry about. You'll probably find England very
pleasant to live in. -Bob
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<img src="http://www.math.mtu.edu/~rwkolkka/BritPicA.jpg">
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Quote:
As to your problem with people who enlist in the army,
likely a result of Canadian liberal propaganda.
LOL - Bob, believe it or not, not everyone is pro-military ("liberal propaganda" aside)
For example... if I was in Steph's position right now, I would have some major ideological problems - not just the fact that her life would basically be uprooted or the stresses of being an "army wife," as you call it, or whatever. I don't want to get into a big ideological discussion here or anything, so I'll just say, not everyone is pro-military.
Edited by retrograde (04/21/06 05:55 PM)
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I don't think the Canadian government has had any propaganda against the military, however, they have not put a lot of money into the military. The main thing about the government is that they don't want to rush into wars without it being justified and they won't blindly follow.
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I do not believe that my ibs does not stem from a war injury. It started about 10 years after I returned home.
I have ancestors that were part of the Kings Royal Rangers of New York, who evetnually settled in Osnasbruck, Stormont, Ontario. I would be interested to learn more of your reenacting of the British.
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Courage doesn’t always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, “I will try again tomorrow”. Mary Anne Radmacher
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Stephie, Now that you have received much good input about your dilemma I'd like you to remember just a couple things … first you are free to make your own choice because we live in free nations … and secondly, it seems a lot of good folks are concerned about you and care for you. Take your time, and really ponder this through. I will be praying for you.
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Courage doesn’t always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, “I will try again tomorrow”. Mary Anne Radmacher
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Canada definitely only involves itself in conflicts that it believes in which is admirable. But with all do respect,Canada does not have the military resources to be involved in more than one conflict. I have read several books on how the government (both Liberal & Conservative) have made the Canadian military a joke. In fact after 9/11, Canada wanted to join the Afghanistan invasion with the U.S. in October '01. They didn't get there until April '02 because they didn't have the cargo planes to get there and had to wait until U.S. planes were available. It is a shame what the Canadian governments have done to what was once the 4th largest army in the world and a well respected one that fought bravely in WWI and WWII. I love Canada and I want to live there one day but I wish the government up there will wake up and smell the coffee and start defending their sovereignty. They have depended far too long on the U.S. for defense of their shores. Maybe I will get a smack in the back of the head from my wife for saying that, but you can be sure my Father-in-law would agree with me.
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Canandian Army
#259579 - 04/22/06 06:42 AM
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Double J
Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 900
Loc: High Rocky Mountains ibs-d
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I knew some Canadian commandoes ... they were the best!
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Courage doesn’t always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, “I will try again tomorrow”. Mary Anne Radmacher
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Oh, I am not talking about the quality of the soldiers. They are top-notch. It is just the equipment they have been given and the government gives them no support.
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I agree there has been neglect. They've put more emphasis on peace keeping than having an army that can mount an offensive strike. However the new government is very pro army so they're increasing the funding.
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YEs it does seem that the new government wants to put more money in. I hope they can accomplish that. It would be a shame if one day Canada gets hit with a terrorist attack and they would not have the resources to fight back. And if one think that Canada is immune from a terrorist attack, just remember Canadian soldiers are fighting bravely an dying in Afghanistan and there are a small number of troops in Iraq embedded with U.S. units. ANd BTW, I love Canada. I can't wait until Tina and I are able to go back and visit again! 
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Oh I don't doubt it since there are some living in Canada, and I'm sure there's some in the US too, and Canada was on Osama's hit list that he mentioned 1 or 2 years ago.
Just a few weeks ago they arrested someone who was known to have contact with terrorist groups, and he was about to skip the country with a suitcase full of money.
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Why do people always make a post to start something, but then
say they don't want to start something<laugh>. Yes, I know
that everyone is not pro-military, but what's that got to do
with my post to Stephie?! And if you're not pro-military,then
why did you get your hair cut short? I think it looks pretty
good too. Now, all you have to do is get yourself a Glengarry
hat too. -Bob
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<img src="http://www.math.mtu.edu/~rwkolkka/BritPicA.jpg">
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Hi J82901, Just send me your email address, and I'll tell you
everything you'd want to know about Victorian British Army
reenacting, or any Victorian Army for that matter. Thanks for
your interest! -Bob
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<img src="http://www.math.mtu.edu/~rwkolkka/BritPicA.jpg">
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Gracie, Oh, I was referring to your former big mouthed prime
minister from Quebec. I gather you are Canadian then? From
which province? My Mother's family is from Chatham, New Bruns
wick. -Bob
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<img src="http://www.math.mtu.edu/~rwkolkka/BritPicA.jpg">
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Yes I am Canadian, and from Ontario.
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Hi Tommy, Say, what are these books you speak of? As far as
I'm aware, Trudeau started taking the army apart and Cretien
(sp?) finished it off. Mulrooney never did anything detriment-
al that I recall. -Bob
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<img src="http://www.math.mtu.edu/~rwkolkka/BritPicA.jpg">
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Oh yeah, I know, they're my cousins . -Bob
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One was While Canada Slept: How Canada lost its place in the World by Aandrew Cohen. I believe he is a writer for the Toronto Globe & Mail. It is a good book. Apprently even through the 1980's under Mulroney the budget was slashed for defence. It was accelerated when Chretien took office and completely gutted the military. The book doe snot only focus on defence it also focuses of Canadian foreign policy and trade.
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Hey Tommy,
I always have a little chuckle when I read your posts because you always seem to try to get a little of everything in... Like, "Canada is bad at this... but I love Canada!"
Maybe it's 'cause you are married to one of fine ladies now that you have to add in the last bit, but it always gives me a giggle. It sometimes sounds like, "Canada sucks, but I still like it!"
To be honest, I am dealing with a personal issue that has raised questions that make me go a little deeper on an ideological sense, but as far as whether or not Canada has a good army or good foreign policy about armed conflict? Meh. I have enough on my plate at the moment, I'll leave that to everyone else.
Steph
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~~I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell-I know right now you can't tell~~Matchbox 20
IBS-D,pain.
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~~I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell-I know right now you can't tell~~Matchbox 20
IBS-D,pain.
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YEah what you're dealing with is a bigger problem. You can ask Tina, I make comments about NY and the States in the same manner. I complain about how bad NY drivers are, how much it costs to live here, how much taxes in taxes I pay, how the presisdent and Congress can gove two craps about the middle class etc. So you see, it is not just Canada I say stuff about!!!  I criticize a lot but I still like it here. Same way about Canada. No place is perfect. Despite each countries faults, I much rather be in either Canada or the U.S. than any other place in the world.
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UPDATE # 2
#259925 - 04/24/06 04:13 PM
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Stephie
Reged: 03/10/04
Posts: 2696
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
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So we got a letter today from the other police force he was applying to. I saw it sitting there, and I just assumed it was bad news. That's just our luck, it seems.
Yesterday, for example, we went to look at a place to live and it was so so nice. They had vacancies, it was a co-op so much cheaper... we were pretty much in, and then we weren't. Our dog is 10 lbs too big. No negotiating. No considersation.
So I opened the letter, and it was indeed bad news. It was a generic letter saying he did not meet either the standards, requirements or his application was incomplete.
I've only talked to him over the phone, but I am just dreading what is to come now. He already walks around here like the world is ending. It's not good.
Steph
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~~I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell-I know right now you can't tell~~Matchbox 20
IBS-D,pain.
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*hugs*
#259931 - 04/24/06 06:14 PM
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Steph-
Sorry to hear everything isn't going well with you lately. I know you have a lot to think over but I know you will make the right decision for yourself.
I had to chuckle about the doggie being 10 pounds over their weight limit for the co-op. I just hope landlords don't start doing that to us like they have been doing it to pets. Course I wonder why they set up these weight requirements for pets or animal restrictions (no dogs just cats, etc.,) since according to my old landlord young children and teenagers/college students do more damage than pets; I know the kids next door to us definitely did.
I will keep you in my thoughts while you go through this. I hope things improve for you soon. *hugs*
-Michelle
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Oh no!
#259934 - 04/24/06 06:46 PM
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Augie
Reged: 10/27/04
Posts: 5807
Loc: Illinois
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Sounds like we have the same luck....bad. I'm so sorry Adrian got this bad news. I just know you both are trying so hard to make a happy life together. People just keep getting in the way though.
Does Adrian only want to be a police officer? Does he have any other interests? Does he have any more possibilties with any police opportunities in Canada now?
It's hard to find a place to accept pets....of any size...at least that's what I'm finding. It stinks! Dogs are so awesome.
Hang in there, Steph. You guys will make it through somehow. It may not be your first choice...but they say there is more than one situation or choice that can make you happy. Life makes us compromise and work with what it gives us...even though it doesn't seem fair. It isn't fair!!! Not at all!
Please keep us updated, sweetie. I hope Adrian is okay...and that you two will have some peace with your life soon.
Hugs and love
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~ Beth
Constipation, pain prodominent,cramps, spasms and bloat!
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Oh no!
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Hang in there! Remember everything happens for a reason. ((((((HUGS)))))))
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Re: *hugs*
#259984 - 04/25/06 07:16 AM
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michele
Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 6886
Loc: southeastern michigan
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I'm sorry Steph. I hope you guys find the answers soon. Hugs and love
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Taking it one day at a time.....
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Bob
#260018 - 04/25/06 09:58 AM
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Hi Bob
I didn't want to get into a big discussion because, from past experience, touchy subjects like politics and religion and ideoligies and such can get ugly here. That's all  All I meant was that the responses to Steph's post seemed to focus on issues with the military being those such as worrying about whether your partner would be killed, the quality of the military etc.
I can't speak for Steph, but if it was me, and if my partner told me he was going to join the army, I'd have some major problems with that. I am vehemently anti-military, anti-war, anti-violence, and I would have some major issues to deal with if my partner was going to join in with that, particularly if he was going to be part of illegal wars lik in Iraq. It would not be about me worrying about whether he would get killed over there (although if he did go of course I would!) - it would be more like a wake-up call that some of our fundamental values differed greatly.
Quote:
And if you're not pro-military,then
why did you get your hair cut short?
ummm...that's a joke, right?
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Oh Steph I'm so sorry I really hope something good comes your way and soon! *HUGS*
(And yeah this post kind of exploded didn't it? Bet you weren't expecting to be debating the quality of the Canadian army! lol )
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Laurel
#260146 - 04/26/06 08:44 AM
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Johnny T. Reb
Reged: 07/09/05
Posts: 987
Loc: Lake Linden, Mich in the U.P. IBS-C
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Yes Laurel I see your point. But I don't see how Stephie
didn't know that years ago? Yes, yes, the haircut comment was
a joke. But I do think it looks good. -Bob
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<img src="http://www.math.mtu.edu/~rwkolkka/BritPicA.jpg">
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Thanks Tommy! I wasn't quite right, but not too far off. The
books sound interesting. Once I finish reading about the
Austro-Prussian War, I'll have to check them out.
I saw your lamenting about the NY state taxes. Well, I think
NY has the highest income and property taxes in the US! When
we lived there, my Dad was always grumbling about the property
taxes. My friends still on Long Island say they've just
gotten a lot worse. -Bob
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<img src="http://www.math.mtu.edu/~rwkolkka/BritPicA.jpg">
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