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Excellent idea!! BF and I alsway blame it on the dog. Like who left this mess? I blame the dog. Why are we arguing? Blame the dog.
I ask for a show of hands and the dog sides with me, but only if I'm quick enough to count them first. 
~nelly~
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I'm an atheist and think it'd be easier if I were a believer and I wouldn't feel so left out of stuff. I identify strongly with people who are left out for this reason. I was raised Quaker but never believed, not even when I was little, but had to go to Quaker school for 10 years and had meeting for worship every Wednesday, where we sat in silence for an hour and sometimes shared what we were thinking of. It could have been worse because I think as an atheist I think I'd have been hating life at Catholic school or at a Jewish day school.
So I can talk about Quakers a little. The Quaker religion teaches simple living, non-violence and acceptance of others. It doesn't seek to convert. They're called the Society of Friends, and believe you can practice where you want to and don't have to attend a Friends' Meeting to be an active member. Our school took part in non-violence resistance and selfless work for others like silent protest at the South African Embassy during the period of apartheid, letter writing campaigns for amnesty int'l, and serving meals and collecting for the homeless. Giving is a major theme, and I remember being encouraged to volunteer for a cause I believed in at school from an early age. You might remember Quakers in history for their help in running the underground railroad. You can still visit some Quaker homes with secret rooms for hiding running slaves in eastern Maryland.
Afterwards, in high school, I got along great with my friends from Wicca, but I'm not a joiner or a believer so I was left out of the whole higher being thing. Most of the non-religious people I've met act like better Christians than the evangelical protestants I've met, which makes me deepen my conviction that one doesn't need organized religion to be a fantastic person. I've heard terrible things said to people in the name of religion and I believe being religious doesn't mean you are a good person, and am convinced some very evil people hide behind religion specifically to do awful things. I think money, power and status should have no place in religion, things like hierarchy of rule, collections, and pomp and circumstance. I try to be ethical, a good person, and give of myself when I can help, and to paraphrase Chinagrl's excellent post, feel that I am accountable to myself so I better get it right. 
~nelly~
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~nelly~
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you shouldn't feel that not believing in a higher power shows a lack of some ability. i don't believe in a higher power, and i find it comforting - i rely on myself and the world. it's reassuring. there's nothing wrong with us, nothing lacking. this is just how we see the world. if you feel like something's missing in your life because you don't believe in a higher power and other people do, that sounds like there is room in your life for some sort of 'faith'. but if you feel like your heart is whole, so to speak, embrace that and love it, and don't apologize for it.
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jaime
ibs-a (mostly d) // vegetarian
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chinagrl, i'm curious what you mean about science being biased and subjective? when it's done right, what i love is that personal belief doesn't come into it - although it's more about politics than religion, you should read the article in the current new yorker about science and bias. it's really interesting. (and depressing about the current state of things, but still.)
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jaime
ibs-a (mostly d) // vegetarian
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Oh, no, I don't feel I'm lacking (I was just acknowledging that a lot of people in this thread do). I've been trying to walk the fine line between stating what I believe in as I believe in it and not offending anybody.  I do wish sometimes I could believe in that stuff because a church seems like a good place to make friends (like I've said), but I think there are lots of advantages to being an atheist. I've just been avoiding detailing them because I didn't want to offend anybody.
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gotcha. i'm approaching this thread with the thought that i'm being as explicit and impassioned about my position as other people are about theirs. i know, elsewhere on these boards, i sometimes feel weird because so many people proclaim their faith in their signatures, but it's hard to do that for agnosticism. i think my beliefs are as valid as anyone else's, and hey, this discussion is our chance. i also don't want to give people the impression that being an agnostic or atheist means we have this big hole in our lives where religion should be, because for me, that's definitely not the case.
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jaime
ibs-a (mostly d) // vegetarian
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Re: Oh yes. :)
#251621 - 03/11/06 07:27 AM
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Nelly
Reged: 08/06/04
Posts: 4381
Loc: Within stray mortar fire of DC
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So have I. It's a real highwire act trying to explain the benefits of being an atheist to believers. In the same way religion adds so much to their lives, atheism adds so much to mine.
~nelly~
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Well, I took a philosophy of science class and I read lots of articles that shaped my point of view. The basic arguments are there's no way that science can be unbiased because the very hypothesis that scientists come up with to test are biased- the questions we think to ask in any age, the way the experiments are designed to answer them, the way the data is interpreted. The minute you stick a human in there, you introduce all their preconceived notions (on a subconscious level, most scientists try hard to be objective, but it's just not possible for a human to be objective). One of the classic examples is that (reputable!)scientists spent forever trying to prove that women were less smart than men. They tried to argue it was because women's brains were smaller, they tried to argue that the difference in hormone levels meant women's brains didn't develop as well, they designed IQ tests that were biased towards subjects men got more of in school, etc. Finally, eventually, they realized that the very hypothesis was biased and they were never going to prove it (although the head of Harvard just tried to dredge that same theory up again!). We look back and laugh at some of the scientific theories that people had in the past, and surely people will do that with some of ours as well. I think science can give us some general rules about how the world works, but theories are always being discarded and overturned, and causes are generally proven (the data is almost never 100% in support of the eventual declared cause, just mostly) so it can't be considered objective fact. At most it can be true for here and now.
Plus, Hume argues that cause and effect is a myth, because things never happen exactly the same way every single time. We can predict based on expectations, but we can't guarantee it will happen like we think it will.
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I also wanted to address this...but couldn't quite come up with the words as eloquently as you!
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~ Beth
Constipation, pain prodominent,cramps, spasms and bloat!
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