back to basics or continue?
#366184 - 10/03/11 11:03 AM
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mavera
Reged: 12/28/10
Posts: 108
Loc: The Netherlands
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Last month I got a relapse (probably stress) and still I can't eat what I did before and still have more (daily) symptoms.
I'm now eating just soluble fiber foods (and no FODMAPs + sugar). Banana, cooked courgette, carrots and beets. Chicken, eggwhite and fish.
Before I could have some more (courgette+skin, bell peppers, mild curry powder).
I'm starting to get a little bit concerned about my vitamins..
I'm not sure whether to continue like this, or take a step back again to ease my tummy even more? So I can add the veggies back more slowly?? 
I'm also concerned if I cut out even more, eventually I won't be able to tolerate anything..??
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PI-IBS-C/A nausea & very bad gastric pain
meds: lansoprazol+macrogol
started EFI +FODMAPs 1/2011. 'Relapse' for 8 months. Now partly back on track again with the diet..
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Usually during and after a flare-up I find it best to drop back to a basic diet for a few days. So maybe it is best to stay away from unpeeled veggies, etc for a while. Also, try puree or mashing your veggies after they are cooked.
Can you take a multivitamin - perhaps a childrens vitamin with few additives and artificial colors/flavors? If you are following the FODMAP diet too be careful of green bell peppers - they contain sorbitol a polyol.
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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I did go back to basics (white bread+rice+banana) for 2 days, which seemed to work. But perhaps that was too short for my bowel to ease..
What do you mean with a while? 3 days, 1 week, a few weeks? And can I eat eggwhite, chicken and fish? Just no veggies, what about banana?
I was thinking about some vitaminpills, but I'm not sure if I can have it (mainly vit C). It would be good for me to take them anyway I guess, also if I can get back to my former diet.
Green bell peppers I do not like anyway  Just the yellow, orange and red ones! It would be very nive if I could add them back eventually..
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PI-IBS-C/A nausea & very bad gastric pain
meds: lansoprazol+macrogol
started EFI +FODMAPs 1/2011. 'Relapse' for 8 months. Now partly back on track again with the diet..
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Wow - you went to the break the cycle mode.
I was thinking of something a little less drastic like removing the insoluble fiber from the veggies by peeling, pureeing them a bit. You can stay with this sort of base diet for a considerable amount of time with no ill effects. Once you get back on course introducing some unpeeled, veggies. Some people get a considerable amount of insoluble fiber back in their diets. Other like me have never been able to. Hopefully you belong to the former group. 
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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My basic diet hasn't been much more than break the cycle mode. The only veggies I could eat for months were zucchini, carrots, beets and bell peppers (cooked).
And right now I can only eat peeled cooked zucchini and carrots for veggies and still have increasing symptoms  (besides white bread, rice, potatoes, chicken, fish, bananas and rice syrup).
What would you suggest then? Continue or go back to plain break the cycle mode? I'm not sure what you're saying..
I definitely can't handle more veggies..
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PI-IBS-C/A nausea & very bad gastric pain
meds: lansoprazol+macrogol
started EFI +FODMAPs 1/2011. 'Relapse' for 8 months. Now partly back on track again with the diet..
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I get different symptoms from too much IF (pseudo-D) or too much fat (bowels seizing up and things not moving tricking you into believing that you have C (when of course there is still daily/twice daily BMs except v inadequate ones and there's straining etc)).
I have found that different approaches work for these two different flare-ups.
When I have had too much fat (and get C like symptoms) what I do afterwards is eat a lot of fibre overall, always more SF than IF of course, so a lot of SF supplement but not cutting out IF. This seems to give me relief quicker than dropping to that base diet.
When I have (pseudo-)D from too much IF, I do go back to the base diet, but that for me means that I basically get a lot less fibre than is needed as my required daily intake. (I limit carbs to a certain extent, you see.) If I were to have a lot of fibre but SF>IF (what I do for fat) I'd still have D, it doesn't work.
It appears that when too much IF: there's little stimulation on the base diet and D goes away. With the too much fat it seems that my bowels need stimulation (the right kind) hence the fibre load. (but too much IF would of course result in the worst thing that can ever happen to me personally, which is IF making me want to go 6 times a day but fat sending my bowels into spasms and it seizing up and it not budging despite what IF demands)
personal experience and experimentation, no scientific backing for all this I think.
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now: stable through EFI+FODMAP dieting (no lactose/no fructose/some fructans and some polyols)
before: IBS-D(pseudo-diarrhoea), bloating, often unbearable pain esp from too much fat: Apr 2007- Dec 2010
FODMAPs: http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/072710p30.shtml
[I've tried VSL#3 -> I could tolerate v good amounts of IF (even with less SF), it worked great (but overall I find it too expensive)]
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Wow - you have one more veggie on your list than I do. I cannot eat beets. They have too much insoluble fiber for me - about 0.8 gram soluble and 1.4 grams insoluble fiber per 100 grams peeled.
For the 8 years or so the only veggies I have eaten are peeled and well cooked carrots and zucchini, peeled and roasted red/yellow peppers and pure tomato paste which I use in sauces.
I don't eat any fruit except bananas and sometimes a little bit of kiwi fruit but I drink pulp free orange and grapefruit juice for vitamin content particularly vitamin C. And I make a pulp free concentrated juice from frozen mixed berries which I use in sauces and on my oatmeal. It gives more vitamins and lots of antioxidants.
Add fish, fowl, seafood, oatmeal, potatoes, pasta and bread you have my complete diet.
Out of curiousity what does PDS stand for in your signature?
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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This thread brings to mind a question I've been wondering. I, too get concerned that my diet is limited and somewhat repetitive. It's not so much that I mind, but, rather doctors I have seen continue to stress a "variety" of foods and a rotation way of eating. The opinion is based on the fact that if we eat the same things (as in I'm pretty much a chicken and turkey person) that I could develop an allergy to those foods since I eat them so often. Has anyone heard of this being an "issue"???
I also think it is difficult to live in a world where all you hear is how one should eat fruit and vegetables and should not eat white foods (rice, potatoes, etc.) which is certainly not how I could ever eat!
I can't eat beets either (thanks Syl for sharing the fiber contents, etc.)even though I love them! The only fruit I can eat is bananas, but that is interesting about using the juice from the berries, etc...what a great way to add some good things to the diet!
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IBS-D. Eating gluten and dairy free.
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I have never read anything from a reputable source that indicates eating the same foods all of the time is likely to produce food allergies. If this were the case then our ancestors who didn't have grocery stores and supermarkets would have plagued with food allergies.
Rotation eating and food variety is a great way to go if you aren't burden with a disabling disorder like IBS. It is quite surprising how little food variety is required to maintain a healthy diet
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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That's a somewhat relieving answer
Although I cannot have berryjuice, tomatopaste/juice and orangejuice (not totally sure about the latter, but I was nauseated with it one time). Because I also have gastric hypersensitivity..
PDS is the dutch equivalent of IBS  (Prikkelbare Darm Syndroom). I didn't notice yet, I'll change it!!
Shelgirl, I think my flare up is caused by stress this time (first time I noticed stress is such a big trigger  Although I do believe lots of stress in the past have made me develop it in the beginning + a couple of stomach flues/low immunity).
I recognise a bit you're describing about the C-like symptoms, although fat is not my trigger for that symptom I guess.
Before I also went back to my 'bell-pepper' (my former basic) diet after too much IF, but now I even can not get back to that.
So I guess I'll cut out all veggies for a few days (except banana) and hope I can add them back in a few days...??
But I'm really scared, cause it seems I'm just getting worse and worse with the diet. (Also doing hypnotherapy again)
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PI-IBS-C/A nausea & very bad gastric pain
meds: lansoprazol+macrogol
started EFI +FODMAPs 1/2011. 'Relapse' for 8 months. Now partly back on track again with the diet..
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I think it could be personal, if you're phrone to that kind of allergies.. But I guess it's a 'aternative medicin'-thought.
My mother's going to a electro-acupunturist/naturopath for about 20 years now and she seems to have all sort of allergies/intolerances that fluctuate. When she cannot eat a certain food, she starts eating other things as substitution. And if she's eating too much of something it turns out the next time..
She has symptoms like excema and dry coughs etc. According to the therapist it's mostly her immune system (and stress) that's causing it.
She finds his approach and her diet-regimens very helpfull, it's really helping her with her symptoms.
When I was younger, I also went to this therapist. I also got lots of restrictions (like milk, sugar, chocolate etc). But back then I never noticed any difference.
Now I'm writing this.. could it be that I have become sensitive/intolerant to any of the things I could eat before?? 
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PI-IBS-C/A nausea & very bad gastric pain
meds: lansoprazol+macrogol
started EFI +FODMAPs 1/2011. 'Relapse' for 8 months. Now partly back on track again with the diet..
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you state you know our ancestors weren't plagued with allergies. and you know this because??? - did you live back then??
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But our ancestors had a totally different diet than we do ('normal'/IBS diet).
They also didn't have IBS
But I don't think you really have to be concerned about it, if you never had allergies before (or people in your family).
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PI-IBS-C/A nausea & very bad gastric pain
meds: lansoprazol+macrogol
started EFI +FODMAPs 1/2011. 'Relapse' for 8 months. Now partly back on track again with the diet..
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You might find this book Allergy : The History of a Modern Malady by Professor Jackson of interest. He is a professor of the history of medicine and director for the Centre for Medical History at the University of Exeter
"Only a century ago, allergies as we know them didn't exist. Ailments such as hay fever, asthma, and food intolerance were considered rare and non-fatal diseases that affected only the upper classes of Western society. Yet, as Jackson reveals here, what began in the early 1900s as a scorned subfield of immunology research in Europe and America exploded into great medical, cultural, and political significance by the end of that century. Allergy traces how the allergy became the archetypal "disease of civilization," a fringe malady of the wealthy that became a disorder that bridged all socioeconomic boundaries and fueled anxieties over modernization. Jackson also examines the social impact of the allergy, as it required new therapeutic treatments and diagnostic procedures and brought in vast economic rewards."
The concept of an "allergy" wasn't introduced into medicine until 1906 by Clemens von Pirquet. The increase in allergies such as peanut allergy in kids over the past century likely has more to do with the aseptic living environments (i.e. clean living) than food rotation and variety.
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Syl has the facts, but IBS is not a modern disorder and it was certainly there even centuries ago and I am assuming before that too. Anyone saying how it's our stress related lifestyles today, I am more inclined to believe that it has something to do with change in the intestinal flora, me personally for instance used to be a lot more highly strung and had much more stress and agony plus anxiety in my life when I was younger yet I still had no IBS back then. Now I'm all cool and calmed down and my gut does not exactly observe this...
My mother is really neurotic yet has no digestive problems either..
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now: stable through EFI+FODMAP dieting (no lactose/no fructose/some fructans and some polyols)
before: IBS-D(pseudo-diarrhoea), bloating, often unbearable pain esp from too much fat: Apr 2007- Dec 2010
FODMAPs: http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/072710p30.shtml
[I've tried VSL#3 -> I could tolerate v good amounts of IF (even with less SF), it worked great (but overall I find it too expensive)]
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In fact, there is more and more evidence emerging in the research literature to suggest that for at least a sub-group of the IBS population the symptoms may be caused by changes in the colonic bacterial flora composition (e.g see references below).
References
Pimentel, M., & Chang, C. (2011). Inflammation and Microflora . Gastroenterology Clinics of North America, 40(1), 69
Campbell, A. K., Matthews, S. B., Vassel, N., Cox, C. D., Naseem, R., Chaichi, J., et al. (2010). Bacterial metabolic 'toxins': A new mechanism for lactose and food intolerance, and irritable bowel syndrome . Toxicology, 278(3), 268-276.
Salonen, A., de Vos, W. M., & Palva, A. (2010). Gastrointestinal microbiota in irritable bowel syndrome: present state and perspectives . Microbiology, 156(11), 3205-3215.
Gwee, K.-A. (2005). Irritable bowel syndrome in developing countries--a disorder of civilization or colonization? Neurogastroenterology And Motility: The Official Journal Of The European Gastrointestinal Motility Society, 17(3), 317-324.
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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all a matter of opinion, professor or not.
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"facts" are different for every person. one person's truth is not another's. many claim to have the facts or know the truth. it is all a matter of opinion.
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I think there are a lot of different causes of 'IBS' or IBS-like symptoms in diffentent people.
I did extensive gut-flora testing and nothing strange was found. Also tried different probiotics, but it didn't gave me any relieve. Which doesn't mean it can't be of help for someone else. For me that's enough to 'know' that it's probably not MY cause.
This last relapse has a lot to do with stress, I'm pretty sure about it. Although it's the first time I'd really noticed stress to be such a big trigger. But I also had a very stressful time before my IBS started.
Off course not everybody gets IBS from being stressful or neurotic. It's a combination of factors.
Big problem is, I can not stop this stress I'm having now.
I really want a second child, but my previous pregnancy was hell (I had extreme nausea, got dehydrated etc). So I'm really scared, also of my IBS getting even worse after/during pregnancy. Will I be able to do it psychologically?
But I cannot choose not doing it, I cannot accept the fact that my daughter will never have a brother or sister.. Because I am physically capable of doing it.
So we chose to go for it, and since then my IBS has gotten much worse. I also cannot enter pregnancy like this..?!
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PI-IBS-C/A nausea & very bad gastric pain
meds: lansoprazol+macrogol
started EFI +FODMAPs 1/2011. 'Relapse' for 8 months. Now partly back on track again with the diet..
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There is no question that stress can exacerbate IBS symptoms. While stress may be a facilitator there is no evidence that it is the cause of IBS.
Unfortunately, currently there are no tests to determine if the gut flora is abnormal causing IBS. Up until recently researchers thought there were about 500 different bacteria in the colonic flora. Recent DNA tests show that there are many many more bacteria than they thought - perhaps as many as 1100 to 1200 different bacteria. At this point in time they have no idea which of the gut bacteria may be involved in IBS. In fact one of the speculations is that stress may alter the gut flora which changes the mucosal barrier allowing bacterial byproducts to past the barrier increasing visceral hypersensitivity causing IBS symptoms. In fact this has been shown to be the case in some animal models. Such findings are one of the reasons they call IBS a 'stress sensitive disorder'.
The partial reduction in symptoms in some people with IBS from taking certain probiotics or getting temporary relief when taking some kinds of antibiotics are some of the clues that lead to the suspicion that IBS may be caused by a problem in the gut flora. It will likely be a few more years before these findings lead to any clinically useful tools.
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Quote:
In fact one of the speculations is that stress may alter the gut flora which changes the mucosal barrier allowing bacterial byproducts to past the barrier increasing visceral hypersensitivity causing IBS symptoms.
That's really interesting!
But you would expect that meds like corticosteroids could work for that kind of IBS-trigger..?
I already thought this testing I did is not a 100% insurance there's nothing wrong. But since the probiotics didn't work for me, I don't think that kind of 'cure'/relieve is something I have to focus about anymore/a lot.
Quote:
It will likely be a few more years before these findings lead to any clinically useful tools.
'A few more years' sounds promising!
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PI-IBS-C/A nausea & very bad gastric pain
meds: lansoprazol+macrogol
started EFI +FODMAPs 1/2011. 'Relapse' for 8 months. Now partly back on track again with the diet..
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Corticosteroids are usually used for inflammatory processes. Clinical studies show they are not effective for controlling IBS. The gut flora is believed to be involved in cellular signalling processes which involve different mechanisms than just immune responses.
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Quote:
Corticosteroids are usually used for inflammatory processes. Clinical studies show they are not effective for controlling IBS. The gut flora is believed to be involved in cellular signalling processes which involve different mechanisms than just immune responses.
Agree. From my understanding and experience that these kinds of meds cause massive inflamation in the body and are not somthing that should be depended upon long term - unfortunately
They can also cause a bit of havoc with your natural digestive bacteria balance in some cases..
Nutritionist Chris
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Foods to avoid with ibs
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