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Re: Comment & a question new
      #359939 - 07/24/10 11:53 AM
shawneric

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon

syl, I am a big fan of hawkings for sure and have studied astronomy and cosmology for over thirty years.

Just fyi, the light left over from the biug bang if you have never seen this, before any stars existed at all.

The big bang is falsifiable by the way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FiESw3Zj4M

The theory of evolution is supported by all the sciences and confirmed with dna and all the evidence.

a joint statement of IAP by 68 national and international science academies lists as established scientific fact that Earth is approximately 4.6 billion years old and has undergone continual change; that life, according to the evidence of earliest fossils, appeared on Earth at least 3.8 billion years ago and has subsequently taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve; and that the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicates their common primordial origin

Of course we are off topic here, but figured I would show you the wmap info if you have never seen it as it is extremely cool.

Neither the big bang or evolution will likely shown to be wrong, but will take on additional information as we get better with our technology. There pretty well supported substantially.

"It will be interesting to see how the SIBO dialog evolves over the next few years."

What has been interesting is Pimnetal writing a book it is the cause of IBS, using an inaccurate test in the intial studies that showed a high percentage and when they used better testing it showed a much much lower percentage. What is important is some people have both and the study of colonic bacteria in general and its effects on IBS and on other disorders. But again people can have IBS and not have sibo and people can have sibo for a variety of reasons. SIBO is a consequence of another problem. Like altered motility, so what causes the altered motility. But then there is viceral hypersensivity and brain gut axis dysfuntion as well.

Take a look at this thread and the posts to it.

http://www.ibsgroup.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=90110&pid=689516&start=&st=#entry689516

for example

Evaluation of Visceral Sensation in IBS Patients Using Subliminal Stimulation

"From Medscape Gastroenterology

Literature Review -- Select Topics in IBS and Chronic Constipation
Latest From the Literature in IBS and Chronic Constipation: September 2006
Posted 09/07/2006

Brian E. Lacy, MD, PhD

Introduction
In this second installment in our quarterly literature review series on topical issues in irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) and chronic constipation, 3 original research studies are reviewed. These reports describe new information regarding the pathophysiology of IBS, the role of alternative therapies in the treatment of IBS, and the treatment of constipation."


"Lawal A, Kern M, Sidhu H, Hofmann C, Shaker R. Novel evidence for hypersensitivity of visceral sensory neural circuitry in irritable bowel syndrome patients. Gastroenterology. 2006;130:26-33.

The pathophysiology of IBS involves multiple underlying factors, including abnormalities in visceral sensation, disturbances in gut motility, and differences in the central nervous system (CNS) processing of visceral pain.[1] Many investigators now believe that visceral hypersensitivity is the most important pathophysiologic abnormality in IBS patients. The mechanism that leads to visceral hypersensitivity in patients with IBS is unknown, although current theories postulate the presence of abnormal sensory receptors and sensory afferents, deficient descending modulating factors, and a hypervigilant CNS. This latter component has been demonstrated in studies using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) and positron emission tomography scans.[2,3] The end result is that IBS patients sense abdominal discomfort at lower levels than normal individuals and often misinterpret normal sensations as painful (allodynia).[4] This has been demonstrated in a number of studies that typically involve distending the lumen of the gastrointestinal tract with a balloon.[5] One concern is that these studies may be influenced by cognitive processes associated with perceived sensory stimulation. Stated another way, anticipation of a possibly unpleasant sensation (balloon distention of the rectum) may alter cortical activity and thus change fMRI findings. Lawal and colleagues[6] addressed this potentially confounding factor by evaluating visceral sensation in IBS patients using subliminal stimulation."


"This well-designed, novel study is the first to show that very low levels of distention in the gastrointestinal tract, without any related cognitive processes typically associated with perceived distention, lead to increased CNS activity in IBS patients compared with healthy volunteers. In addition, patients with IBS demonstrated a maximum response to subliminal distention, as compared with the graded response seen in healthy volunteers. These findings are important for a number of reasons. One, it confirms the now widely accepted view that the brain-gut axis is a critical component in IBS. Two, it emphasizes that hypersensitivity is a key underlying pathophysiologic mechanism in the generation of symptoms in IBS patients. And finally, although not evaluated in this study, these findings point out that therapeutic options for patients with IBS should focus on treating both the hypersensitive gut and the hypersensitive CNS."

http://www.medscape....rticle/544018_2


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Irritable Bowel Syndrome in the Brain new
      #359983 - 07/28/10 02:41 AM
capricorn1942

Reged: 10/06/03
Posts: 248


This article addresses physical changes in the brain of ibsers. However, it does not contradict gut/brain:

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=118360

Cheers.


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ibs-d (pseudo)with pain and bloating

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Re: Irritable Bowel Syndrome in the Brain new
      #359986 - 07/28/10 07:15 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

If you read the full paper in the conclusions the authors say they don't know if the observed volumetric changes in the grey matter are related to primary alterations in brain, or if they are a consequence of altered visceral signaling to the brain. In other words, they still don't know if IBS is a result of problems in the gut, the brain or both or even if there are a variety of subtypes each with its own specific cause. What the study does show is the IBS is an organic problem and it is not caused psychological disorders.

--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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Pain is amplified by the Brain new
      #359987 - 07/28/10 08:17 AM
capricorn1942

Reged: 10/06/03
Posts: 248


There is one more important point in the article which bears mentioning:

"In chronic pain syndromes, nerves constantly send increased pain signals to the brain. But in IBS, the brain itself seems to be amplifying pain signals it receives from the bowel."

Which seems to say that the brain by itself is responsible for increased pain beyond pain signals transmitted from the gut to the brain via the gut/brain interface.

Cheers.

--------------------
ibs-d (pseudo)with pain and bloating

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Re: Pain is amplified by the Brain new
      #359988 - 07/28/10 08:29 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

Conconcious pain maybe amplified in the brain but the cause of the pain maybe in the gut. Remove the cause and lose the pain For example, this research doesn't address things like post-infectious IBS from GI infections which is unlikely to be a problem in the brain. There are likely many subtypes of IBS.

--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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Re: Pain is amplified by the Brain new
      #359989 - 07/28/10 08:53 AM
capricorn1942

Reged: 10/06/03
Posts: 248


Yes, take away the gut pain and there is no pain to amplify.

However, I see no indication that the 55 individuals were from any specific ibs sub-types and if there was a somewhat random selection, then the pain amplification applies to most if not all of the sub types included.

Cheers.

--------------------
ibs-d (pseudo)with pain and bloating

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Re: Pain is amplified by the Brain new
      #359990 - 07/28/10 09:49 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

All 106 individuals in the study were women - the selection wasn't completely random. By the ROME definition pain is associated with IBS irrespective of subtype so the 55 women with IBS had pain. Only 17 of the 55 were classified as pain-predominant - this is a very small size. A simple explanation could be that the normal individuals didn't have a cause of pain in the gut but the IBS individuals did. As I mentioned, in the original article the authors say they don't know if the change in grey matter in the cognitive pain region of the brain is due to primary alterations in brain or if they are a consequence of altered visceral signaling to the brain. This is an interesting study that adds significant to what is known but it still leaves the question as to the cause of IBS and associated pain a mystery.

--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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Re: Pain is amplified by the Brain new
      #359991 - 07/28/10 10:39 AM
shawneric

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon

from the 6th annual symposium on functional disorders.

Some of the major research advances that support the intergrated or biopsyhosocial approach include

Demonstration of post infectious IBS as a brain gut axis disorder.

http://www.iffgd.org/store/viewproduct/199

One thing to know here is serotonin is the neurotransmitter that releases from the gut and singals to the brain the gut is in pain.



--------------------
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Re: Pain is amplified by the Brain new
      #359992 - 07/28/10 10:44 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

While PI-IBS may effect the brain-gut axis there is no indication that PI-IBS down regulates pain control centers in the brain. Beside serotonin other signaling mechanisms such as CRF (corticotropin-releasing hormone) have been implicated too.

--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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Re: Pain is amplified by the Brain new
      #359995 - 07/28/10 11:24 AM
shawneric

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon

They have already demonstrated PI IBS as a brain gut axis disorder.

This is one reason why not all people with an enteric infection develop IBS.

The CRF is anotheer issue with the brain and signals coming from the gut. The gut singals the brain and the brain realeases CRF and signals back to the gut. This is part of the HPA axis responce. It singals mast cells in the gut and they release histimine unto the smooth muscle and that contributes to the pain.

Readers' Exchange
Defining Stress in IBS
Fall 2003

From Arizona -- Thank you so much for your efforts and support for those of us with GI disorders. Your first issue (Spring 2003) of Digestive Health Matters is both professional and informative. I would like to comment on one of the articles - "The CNS: Center for Neurovisceral Sciences and Women's Health at UCLA." I am encouraged to know that steps are being taken for funding research of IBS and interstitial cystitis. However, it is discouraging that researchers are still expending time and money to research "neurobiological mechanisms by which stress modulates brain-visceral interaction." I realize that stress is a popular theory in the discussion of IBS triggers, however, I believe this is completely backward and it is the chronic pain and totally unreliable bowel function of an IBS sufferer which causes the greatest stress. If research would focus on "fixing" the bowel, no doubt the panic and fear of IBS would be greatly alleviated.

Comment from Emeran A. Mayer, M.D. -- In contrast to the common interpretation of the term "stress" as a psychological phenomenon, it should be understood as any real or perceived perturbation of an organism's homeostasis, or state of harmony or balance. For example, in this viewpoint a severe hemorrhage, starvation, extreme temperature, or worry about the unpredictable onset of abdominal pain all qualify as stressors -- some as "physical" stressors, others as "psychological" stressors. The fear to leave the house in the morning without knowing if one can make it to work without having to stop on the freeway because of an uncontrollable bowel movement, or the fear of experiencing uncontrollable abdominal discomfort during an important business meeting are sufficient stressors to activate the central stress system.

The central stress system involves the release of chemical stress mediators in the brain (such as corticotropin releasing factor), which in turn orchestrate an integrated autonomic, behavioral, neuroendocrine, and pain modulatory response. This biological response in turn will alter the way the brain and the viscera interact, and this altered brain-gut interaction can result in worsening of IBS symptoms. Thus, pain and discomfort, fear of these symptoms, activation of the stress response, and modulation of the brain-gut interactions by stress mediators are part of a vicious cycle which need to be interrupted to produce symptom relief.

The neurobiology of stress is not a theory, but a topic that can be studied in animal models, and one of the hottest topics in drug development for treatment of IBS (e.g., substance P antagonists, corticotropin releasing factor antagonists).

Merck Manual

"In this disorder, the digestive tract is especially sensitive to many stimuli. Stress, diet, drugs, hormones, or minor irritants may cause the digestive tract to contract abnormally, usually leading to diarrhea. Periods of constipation may occur between bouts of diarrhea. Irritable bowel syndrome affects women 3 times more often than men.

The brain has enormous control over the digestive system. Stress, anxiety, depression, fear, and virtually any strong emotion can lead to diarrhea, constipation, and other changes in bowel function and can further worsen a flare-up (bout or attack) of irritable bowel syndrome."

http://www.merck.com...129/ch129d.html

Dr Wood's comments for me


"Dr. Jack Wood, a renowned physiologist at The Ohio State University calls the ENS the little-brain-in-the-gut.

"Dear Shawn:

Sorry for the delayed reply to your question. I generally agree with Dr. Drosssman's response. A subgroup of individuals when they become sensitized to specific molecules in certain foods respond to ingestion of the molecules with symptoms of cramping abdominal pain, fecal urgency and explosive watery diarrhea. These are also the primary symptoms of diarrhea-predominant IBS. Enteric mast cells, by mechanisms we don't understand, become sensitized to the food molecule and respond to its presence by releasing a signal to the brain-in-the-gut (ENS) which is interpreted as a threat. The ENS responds by running a program which organizes secretion and motility into a behavior pattern of the bowel, which rapidly clears the threat from the lumen. Because to be effective secretion occurs in large volumes and the contractions that accomplish rapid propulsion are strong, running of the program has the side effects of diarrhea and cramping pain.

Big brain input to mast cells during stress activates the mast cells to evoke the symptoms resulting from exposure of the mast cells to sensitizing food antigens. Aside from food allergens and mast cells, certain chemicals such as those in hot peppers, stimulate sensory nerves in the ENS and we are beginning to understand how this can also lead to food-related symptoms that might mimic or exacerbate IBS.

Hope this helps,

Jackie (Jack) D. Wood "

FYI

"You have two brains: one in your head and another in your gut. Dr. Jackie D. Wood is a renowned physiologist at The Ohio State University. He calls the second brain, "the-little-brain-in-the-gut." This enteric nervous system is part of the autonomic nervous system and contains over one hundred million neurons, which is as many as are in the spinal cord. This complex network of nerves lines the walls of the digestive tract form the esophagus all the way down to the colon. This little brain in the gut is connected to the big brain by the vagus nerves, bundles of nerve fibers running from the GI tract to the head. All neurotransmitters, such as serotonin that are found in the brain are also present in the gut.

Dr Wood has discovered that this little-brain-in-the-gut has programs that are designed for our protection and which are very much like computer programs. They respond to perceived threats in the same way that the limbic system or the emotional brain does. So the threat of a gastrointestinal infection can activate the program that increases gut contractions in order to get rid of the infection. The symptoms are abdominal cramping and diarrhea.

Dr. Wood has determined that a type of cell found in the body and the gut, called the mast cell, is a key to understanding the connection of the big brain in the head with the little-brain-in-the-gut. Mast cells are involved in defense of the body. In response to certain threats or triggers, such as pollen or infection, mast cells release chemicals, such as histamine, that help to fight off the invader. Histamine is one of the chemicals that causes the symptoms of an allergy or a cold. When an infection of the gut occurs, such as food poisoning or gastroenteritis, the mast cells of the gut release histamine. The little-brain-in-the-gut interprets the mast cell signal of histamine release as a threat and calls up a protective program designed to remove the threat at the expense of symptoms: abdominal pain and diarrhea.

The brain to mast cell connection has a direct clinical relevance for irritable bowel syndrome and other functional gastrointestinal syndromes. It implies a mechanism for linking allostasis and the good stress response to irritable states (e.g., abdominal pain and diarrhea) of the gut. Mast cells can be activated to release histamine in response to perceived psychological stress, whether the stressor or trigger is consciously perceived or not. So the end result is the same as if an infection activated the program in the-little-brain-in-the-gut: abdominal pain and diarrhea."

So two majorally important cells in the gut are enterochromaffin cells and mast cells. The enterochromaffin cells or EC cells release serotonin to start gut contractions. This process helps explain d and c and d/c.

The alteration in the gut is seen as a "threat" by the brain and the brain's hpa axis is then activated.

These cells are embedded in the lining of the gut brain and are close to each other.

IN PI IBS they have found an increase of both these cells embedded in the gut.


"By using sophisticated imaging techniques that allow us to visualize the activity of the living human brain (see “Looking Into the Living Human Brain”), researchers at the UCLA Neuroenteric Disease Section have recently identified for the first time the regions within the brain that are involved in the perception and modulation of visceral sensations, including visceral pain. In addition, by comparing brain responses to an acute intestinal stimulus between healthy control subjects, patients suffering from IBS, and patients with ulcerative colitis, they were able to identify specific alterations in how the brains of IBS patients process and respond to acute colonic pain."

History of functional disorders.

MOTILITYIn healthy subjects, stress can increase motility in the esophagus, stomach, small and large intestine and colon. Abnormal motility can generate a variety of GI symptoms including vomiting, diarrhea, constipation, acute abdominal pain, and fecal incontinence. Functional GI
patients have even greater increased motility in response to stressors in comparison to normal subjects. While abnormal motility plays a vital role in understanding many of the functional GI disorders and their symptoms, it is not sufficient to explain reports of chronic or recurrent abdominal pain.

VISCERAL HYPERSENSITIVITY Visceral hypersensitivity helps to account for disorders associated with chronic or recurrent pain, which are not well correlated with changes in gastrointestinal motility, and in some cases, where
motility disturbances do not exist. Patients suffering from visceral hypersensitivity have a lower pain threshold with balloon distension of the bowel or have increased sensitivity to even normal intestinal function. Additionally, there may be an increased or unusual area of somatic referral of visceral pain. Recently it has been concluded that visceral hypersensitivity may be induced in
response to rectal or colonic distension in normal subjects, and to a greater degree, in persons with IBS. Therefore, it is possible that the pain of functional GI disorders may relate to sensitization resulting from chronic abnormal motor hyperactivity, GI infection, or trauma/injury to the viscera.

BRAIN-GUT AXIS
The concept of brain-gut interactions brings together observations relating to motility and visceral hypersensitivity and their modulation by psychosocial factors. By integrating intestinal and CNS central nervous system activity, the brain-gut axis explains the symptoms relating to functional GI disorders. In other words, senses such as vision and smell, as well as enteroceptive information (i.e. emotion and thought) have the capability to affect gastrointestinal sensation,
motility, secretion, and inflammation. Conversely, viscerotopic effects reciprocally affect central
pain perception, mood, and behavior. For example, spontaneously induced contractions of the colon in rats leads to activation of the locus coeruleus in the pons, an area closely connected to pain and emotional centers in the brain. Jointly, the increased arousal or anxiety is associated with a decrease in the frequency of MMC activity of the small bowel possibly mediated by stress hormones in the brain. Based on these observations, ccc it is no longer rational to try to discriminate whether physiological or psychological factors produce pain or other bowel symptoms. Instead, the Functional GI disorders are understood in terms of dysregulation of brain-gut function, and the task is to determine to what degree each is remediable. Therefore, a treatment approach
consistent with the concept of brain-gut dysfunction may focus on the neuropeptides and receptors that are present in both enteric and central nervous systems.

med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/historyfunctionaldisorders.pdf




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