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Kim, yes candida overgrowth syndrome has nothing to do with IBS and I personally think it shouldn't be posted along with IBS. People think IBS is a "catch all diagnoses it is NOT."
"If you could clarify something I heard on one of the videos you posted just to make sure I understand it correctly... I heard some of the doctors say that bacterial flora, mucosal inflammation, changes in the mucosal barrier which could allow bacteria through the wall into the gut, gene mutations are things that can play a role in IBS, among other things. Is this recent speculation?"
No its around five or more years old.
This has to do with people who develop IBS from an enteric infection, food poisoning, both viruses and bacterial infections and the infections resolve and a person is left with and dysregulation between the communication brain and ther gut.
Lots of people are studying bacteria and IBS, no SInGLE pathogen has been found, in fact mulitple ones leading to PI IBS have been found and so far altered gut bacteria may play some roles in contributing to IBS synmptoms, but the only bacteria problem found so far, are low counts of certain ones.
Bacteria in the gut changes all the time from diet and stressors. A person in florida, doesn't have the same as a person in Oregon say, because it helps protect you from pathogens around your own enviromenment and in your own house. Only 30 percent of the 500 species have been culture so far.
Candida is one of the most studied organisms in the gut. I will post something soon on this, but the actual gut-permeablity which is NOT the same as "leaky gut" or Dysbiosis, is for one the way the body absorbs nutrients to begin with.
Mucousal inflammation is MACROSCOPIC of specific cells embedded in the gut wall mainly seen in these IBS Post infectious IBSers. About 30% or more of people develop IBS froma previous gut infection that resides and leaves a person with celluar changes to the gut that are used for gut functioning. Also importantly psychological stressors can activate or reativate the inflammation. Bu this CONTRIBUTES to pain and the symptoms, but does not cause them.
You also need to know and this is very very important. Inflammation cannot be a diagnostic marker in IBS, because it does not always cause pain, which is a must for an IBS diagnoses.
Most pathogens in the gut cause D and really bad ones vomting, the two methods for the body to rid itself of a pathogen.
One of the top expert doctors in Inflammation and post infectious IBS is DR Spiller who has done a ton of work and looks at the gut cells with microscopes or sometimes by dissection of cadavers.
The neurotranmitter serotonin is INVOLVED in this as well. Almost all IBSers if not all show serotonin dyregulation between the gut brain and the brain and back. This is the transmitter that signals pain/discomfort to the brain from the gut. The gut can trigger the brain and the brain can trigger the gut, they are both operational top cause the symptoms.
Approximately 1 in ten patients with irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) believe their IBS began with an infectious illness. Prospective studies have shown that 3% to 36% of enteric infections lead to persistent new IBS symptoms; the precise incidence depends on the infecting organism. Whereas viral gastroenteritis seems to have only short-term effects, bacterial enteritis and protozoan and helminth infections are followed by prolonged postinfective IBS (PI-IBS). Risk factors for developing PI-IBS include, in order of importance, prolonged duration of initial illness, toxicity of infecting bacterial strain, smoking, mucosal markers of inflammation, female gender, depression, hypochondriasis, and adverse life events in the preceding 3 months. Age older than 60 years might protect against PI-IBS, whereas treatment with antibiotics has been associated with increased risk. The mechanisms that cause PI-IBS are unknown but could include residual inflammation or persistent changes in mucosal immunocytes, enterochromaffin and mast cells, enteric nerves, and the gastrointestinal microbiota. Adverse psychological factors contribute to persistent low-grade inflammation. The prognosis for patients with PI-IBS is somewhat better than for those with unselected IBS, but PI-IBS can still take years to resolve. There are no specific treatments for PI-IBS; these should be tailored to the predominant bowel disturbance, which is most frequently diarrhea.
Serotonin and GI clinical disorders.
Spiller R.
Wolfson Digestive Diseases Centre, C Floor South Block, University Hospital, Clifton Boulevard, Nottingham, NG7 2UH, United Kingdom. robin.spiller@nottingham.ac.uk
Serotonin is widely distributed throughout the gut within both the enteric nerves and enterochromaffin (EC) cells. EC cells are located in the gut mucosa with maximal numbers in the duodenum and rectum where they act as signal transducers, responding to pressure and luminal substances both bacterial and dietary. Activation leads to serotonin release which acts on a range of receptors on mucosal afferent and myenteric interneurones to initiate secretomotor reflexes. These cause nausea and vomiting as well as intestinal secretion, propulsion and if pronounced, diarrhoea. Inflammation in animal models acts via T lymphocytes to increase EC cell numbers and mucosal serotonin (5-HT) content while inflammatory cytokines decrease serotonin transporter (SERT) function. Inflammation due to coeliac disease and following gastrointestinal infection increases mucosal 5-HT availability by a combination of increased EC cells and depressed SERT. Irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) developing after gastrointestinal infection and IBS with diarrhoea is associated with excess 5-HT. The associated diarrhoeal symptoms respond well to 5-HT(3) receptor antagonists. These drugs also inhibit the nausea and vomiting occurring in patients undergoing chemotherapy which cause a marked increase in release of 5-HT as well as other mediators. Other conditions including IBS-C and constipation may have inadequate 5-HT release and benefit from both 5-HT(3) and 5-HT(4) receptor agonists.
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My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com
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Kim
#354163 - 01/07/10 10:03 AM
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Gerikat
Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285
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Yes, Kim, I agree, it's not about "being right", but being helpful. Thanks for your informative posts. 
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Toxins and processed foods are not the CAUSE of IBS, you haven't studied this condition AT ALL.
"Since I have suffered for thirty eight of IBS I wonder what role foods play in IBS. So I asked Dr Douglas Drossman at the UNC Center for Functional GI and Motility disorders and here was his response. This is not a substitute for seeking medical advise from your doctor on any specific conditions you may have, but for educational purposes only.
Dr. Drossman is a Co-director of the Center and Professor of Medicine and Psychiatry at UNC-CH. He established a program of research in functional gastrointestinal disorders at UNC more than 15 years ago and has published more than 250 books, articles, and abstracts relating to epidemiology, psychosocial and quality of life assessment, design of treatment trials, and outcomes research in gastrointestinal disorders.
Dr Drossman's comments on foods for IBS Health.
Shawn,
To say that people with IBS may get symptoms from food intolerances is an acceptable possibility, since the gut will over react to stressors of all types including food (high fat or large volumes of food in particular). Furthermore, there can be specific intolerances. So if you have a lactose intolerance for example, it can exacerbate, or even mimic IBS. Other examples of food substances causing diarrhea would be high consumers of caffeine or alcohol which can stimulate intestinal secretion or with the latter, pull water into the bowel (osmotic diarrhea). The same would be true for overdoing certain poorly absorbed sugars that can cause an osmotic type of diarrhea Sorbitol, found in sugarless gum and sugar substituted foods can also produce such an osmotic diarrhea. Even more naturally, people who consume a large amount of fruits, juices or other processed foods enriched with fructose, can get diarrhea because it is not as easily absorbed by the bowel and goes to the colon where it pulls in water. So if you have IBS, all of these food items would make it worse.
However, it is important to separate factors that worsen IBS (e.g., foods as above, stress, hormonal changes, etc.) from the cause or pathophysiology of IBS. Just like stress doesn't cause IBS, (though it can make it worse), foods must be understood as aggravating rather than etiological in nature.
The cause of IBS is yet to be determined. However, modern research understands IBS as a disorder of increased reactivity of the bowel, visceral hypersensitivity and dysfunction of the brain-gut axis. There are subgroups being defined as well, including post-infectious IBS which can lead to IBS symptoms. Other work using brain imaging shows that the pain regulation center of the brain (cingulate cortex) can be impaired, as well as good evidence for there being abnormalities in motility which can at least in part explain the diarrhea and constipation. So finding a specific "cause" of IBS has grown out of general interest in place of understanding physiological subgroups that may become amenable to more specific treatments. Hope that helps.
Doug
This is from the president of the ROME CRiteria to diagnoses all functional disorders including IBS and a world authority and teacher for GI doctors and training for doctors in functional disorders. They center also share IBS data from around the world with all IBS researchers.
You are posting Bad information on IBS, and quite frankly making it up from your own opinions NOT real IBS sciences and facts. This hurts IBSers from getting accurate information on IBS. You bbase this on beliefs, they base it on over twenty years of peer reviewed research and Hard work.
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My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com
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Re: Kim
#354165 - 01/07/10 10:08 AM
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shawneric
Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 1738
Loc: Oregon
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Wrong, it is about the acutal science ands NOT people's personal opinions and anecdotal evidence.
Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis
Its about rigorous or scientific analysis. Which has and is being done, years ago in 92 they ruled out candida as a cause of IBS.
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My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com
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Carolyn
#354166 - 01/07/10 10:10 AM
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Gerikat
Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285
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I agree with you about toxins being the cause of many of our ills. It makes sense to me.
I think a diet like our ancestors consumed without processed foods is the best. If grandma didn't know what it was/is, then don't eat it.
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Kim,(sorry to chime in) I just wanted to mention that my doctors diagnosed me with having IBS; probably because they could not find anything wrong. I think this diagnosis happens to a good many people. So IBS has become a term used to explain a very wide variety of unexplainable gut symptoms.
I was obviously misdiagnosed. I bet many people here on the boards have been misdiagnosed as well.
"So IBS has become a term used to explain a very wide variety of unexplainable gut symptoms."
Totally wrong IBS IS NOT A "CATCH ALL DIAGNOSES"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is something you don't get at all.
The people that misdiagnosed you were the ones that diagnose you with a condition that doesn't even exist and the treatment helped you IBS.
Cadida would not cause constipation in the first place, but d to get rid of the pathogen. You also have millions of candida in your body of different species. They diagnosed you with want you wanted to hear and they is no REAl TEST FOR THIS FOR A reason they can"t find it AFTER TWENTY YEARS OF LOOKING IN EVERY FIELD, INCLUDING mYCOLOGY, THE STUDY OF FUNGUSES. The people that diagnosed you with candida, are not experts on IBS.
They have not found the exact cause of IBS, but they have found a lot of problems, none of them are candida overgrowth, no matter how hard you say it.
Since I have suffered for thirty eight of IBS I wonder what role foods play in IBS. So I asked Dr Douglas Drossman at the UNC Center for Functional GI and Motility disorders and here was his response. This is not a substitute for seeking medical advise from your doctor on any specific conditions you may have, but for educational purposes only.
Dr. Drossman is a Co-director of the Center and Professor of Medicine and Psychiatry at UNC-CH. He established a program of research in functional gastrointestinal disorders at UNC more than 15 years ago and has published more than 250 books, articles, and abstracts relating to epidemiology, psychosocial and quality of life assessment, design of treatment trials, and outcomes research in gastrointestinal disorders.
Dr Drossman's comments on foods for IBS Health.
Shawn,
To say that people with IBS may get symptoms from food intolerances is an acceptable possibility, since the gut will over react to stressors of all types including food (high fat or large volumes of food in particular). Furthermore, there can be specific intolerances. So if you have a lactose intolerance for example, it can exacerbate, or even mimic IBS. Other examples of food substances causing diarrhea would be high consumers of caffeine or alcohol which can stimulate intestinal secretion or with the latter, pull water into the bowel (osmotic diarrhea). The same would be true for overdoing certain poorly absorbed sugars that can cause an osmotic type of diarrhea Sorbitol, found in sugarless gum and sugar substituted foods can also produce such an osmotic diarrhea. Even more naturally, people who consume a large amount of fruits, juices or other processed foods enriched with fructose, can get diarrhea because it is not as easily absorbed by the bowel and goes to the colon where it pulls in water. So if you have IBS, all of these food items would make it worse.
However, it is important to separate factors that worsen IBS (e.g., foods as above, stress, hormonal changes, etc.) from the cause or pathophysiology of IBS. Just like stress doesn't cause IBS, (though it can make it worse), foods must be understood as aggravating rather than etiological in nature.
The cause of IBS is yet to be determined. However, modern research understands IBS as a disorder of increased reactivity of the bowel, visceral hypersensitivity and dysfunction of the brain-gut axis. There are subgroups being defined as well, including post-infectious IBS which can lead to IBS symptoms. Other work using brain imaging shows that the pain regulation center of the brain (cingulate cortex) can be impaired, as well as good evidence for there being abnormalities in motility which can at least in part explain the diarrhea and constipation. So finding a specific "cause" of IBS has grown out of general interest in place of understanding physiological subgroups that may become amenable to more specific treatments. Hope that helps.
Doug
http://www.ibshealth.com/ibsfoods2.htm
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My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com
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Carolyn
#354170 - 01/07/10 10:19 AM
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Gerikat
Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285
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This happened to me. After many, many tests the doc could not find out what was wrong or right, so he just shrugged his shoulders and said, "I guess IBS?" Say what.
I then fired him and started with a Naturopath.
So, they throw you into the IBS pits of hell, if they don't have any other answers for you. They just don't know.
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First its important to go over IBS itself. There are some 28 GI disorders of function, some examples are IBS, functional dyspepsisa, functional D, functional c, functional analrectal disorders ect..
The diagnoses of IBS is based on a specific cluster of symptoms. It is NOT a catch all diagnoses.
"What Patients Know About Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS) and What They Would Like to Know. National Survey on Patient Educational Needs in IBS and Development and Validation of the Patient Educational
Posted 09/18/2007
"The most prevalent IBS misconceptions included (% of subjects agreeing with the statement): IBS is caused by lack of digestive enzymes (52%), is a form of colitis (42.8%), will worsen with age (47.9%), and can develop into colitis (43%) or malnutrition (37.7%) or cancer (21.4%). IBS patients were interested in learning about (% of subjects choosing an item): (1) foods to avoid (63.3%), (2) causes of IBS (62%), (3) coping strategies (59.4%), (4) medications (55.2%), (5) will they have to live with IBS for life (51.6%), and (6) research studies (48.6%). Patients using the Web were better informed about IBS.
Conclusion: (1) Many patients hold misconceptions about IBS being caused by dietary habits, developing into cancer, colitis, causing malnutrition, or worsening with age; (2) patients most often seek information about dietary changes; and (3) educational needs may be different for persons using the internet for medical information."
"The emerging research typifies IBS as a brain-gut disorder where psychosocial factors (e.g., stress, cognitions, coping, etc.) can alter the symptoms and illness experience for better or worse. Due to these and other disease specific characteristics, that are amenable to education, we believe effective educational interventions may significantly impact the management of this common disorder."
Patients Consider IBS a Diagnosis of Exclusion: Over 50% of the patients considered IBS to be a "catch all" diagnosis and another 22% were unsure. While this could reflect the information provided by their physicians (thus highlighting the need to also educate physicians about IBS), this misconception may motivate patients to seek more and more diagnostic studies to find "the cause." The use of the Rome criteria[17] permits the patient to have a positive diagnosis. With confidence in knowing that IBS is a specific entity , such behaviors are minimized. Thus it is important for the physician to provide proper education about the level of confidence in the diagnosis.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/117956426/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
Hopefully also it will help when talking to your doctor.
NEVER self diagnose. The leading cause of misdiagnoses is self diagnoses. Some conditions that mimick some IBS symptoms are also very serious and even potentially deadly.
First though is the change in diagnosing IBS that has been made.
"In the past two decades, medical opinion has changed regarding how to diagnose IBS. The older view emphasized that IBS should be regarded primarily as a "diagnosis of exclusion;" that is, diagnosed only after diagnostic testing excludes many disorders that could possibly cause the symptoms. Because many medical disorders can produce the cardinal IBS features of abdominal discomfort or pain and disturbed bowel habit as well as other symptoms caused by IBS, this approach often led to extensive diagnostic testing in many patients. Since the era when such thinking about IBS was common, laboratory, motility, radiologic, and endoscopic tests have proliferated. Although each of these tests is useful in evaluating certain problems, their routine or indiscriminate use can cause unnecessary inconvenience and cost for patients, and complications even occur infrequently from some of the tests. Fortunately, physicians can now diagnose IBS in most patients by recognizing certain symptom details, performing a physical examination, and undertaking limited diagnostic testing. This simpler approach is grounded on recent knowledge of the typical symptoms of IBS, and it leads to a reliable diagnosis in most cases. Extensive testing is usually reserved for special situations."
http://www.aboutibs.org/Publications/diagnosis.html
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My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com
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Dr. Andrew Weil, bestselling author of Natural Health, Natural Medecine has to say about candidia...
Candidiasis
Candida albicans is a kind of yeast that normally lives in the gastrointestinal tract and vagina without causing any problems. Under certain circumstances it can reproduce wildly, causing symptomatic infections of the mouth (thrush) and vagina as well as intestinal upsets. A common cause of yeast overgrowth is antibiotic therapy, which can kill off the "friendly" bacteria that compete with candida for food and keep it in check. If you have to take broad-spectrum antibiotics, it is a good idea to take supplemental acidophilus; to reduce the possibility of yeast infections. Candidiasis also tends to occur in people with suppressed immunity, such as patients with cancer and AIDS and those on long-term treatment with steroids and other immunosuppressive drugs.
In recent years Candida albicans has received much notoriety in certain circles as a major cause of illness. Some holistic practitioners diagnose everyone coming through the door as having systemic yeast infections, and health-food stores make a great deal of money on supplements that claim to fight yeast. I have read books and pamphlets that give the impression that everyone who has ever taken an antibiotic or steroid now is infected with candida, and that undiagnosed yeast infections are responsible for fatigue, depression, anxiety, mood swings, behavioral problems in children, allergic reactivity, skin eruptions, and most chronic digestive problems. I have had patients who believed yeast was growing in their blood, lungs, and other vital organs and begged me to prescribe strong drugs to kill it. They shunned beer, wine, bread, vinegar, and even mushrooms in the belief that any food associated with yeast or fungus would contribute to their disease.
Most of these ideas are unsound. Diagnoses of systemic candidiasis usually have no scientific basis, and most treatments people take for it are a waste of time and money. If you had yeast growing in your blood or vital organs, you would be in an intensive care unit, critically ill. Since candida is a normal inhabitant of the human body, no objective test can prove it to be the cause of general symptoms. Culturing it from the throat of a depressed patient does not mean that yeast infection is the cause of the depression.
Most of the treatments prescribed for this faddish disease are harmless except to the pocketbook. One that is not is the prescription drug ketoconazole (Nizoral). It can be toxic to the liver and should not be used except on the advice of an infectious disease specialist. The more commonly used drug nystatin (Mycostatin) is usually safe because it is not absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract.
Women who have recurrent vaginal yeast infections should see the entry on that subject. Others who worry about yeast in their system would do well to eat raw garlic every day; since it is a very effective antifungal agent. Take a course of nystatin if you wish (it must be prescribed by a doctor), and try to cut way down on sugar in the diet. Pau d'arco, an herbal remedy made from the bark of a South American jungle tree (species of Tabebuia, also known as palo de arco, lapacho, and taheebo) is often recommended for candidiasis, but I do not prescribe it. Much of the bark that comes into this country is contaminated with pesticides.
Candidiasis is a wonderful example of a fashionable disease. It appeals to our fears of being vulnerable to foreign invaders and satisfies a need to blame our vague and general symptoms on a specific causative agent. ten years from now it may be out of fashion. In the meantime, if you have used antibiotics and steroids for a long time and have clear symptoms and signs of yeast infection, by all means follow the recommendations above and see what happens. If after a reasonable trial, say four to six weeks, you have not experienced dramatic improvement, consider another diagnosis.
The recomended anti-candida diet is VERY similar to the specific carbohydrate diets that are recomended for both IBS and IBD by the alternative therapy community.
Real Candidiasis which is "Systemic Candidiasis are "systemic infections"
Systemic Candidiasis is rare and usally found in highly compromised immune systems such as AIDS and Cancer and can be life threatening.
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My website on IBS is www.ibshealth.com
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for Syl
#354175 - 01/07/10 10:31 AM
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PMartin
Reged: 08/05/08
Posts: 140
Loc: Niagara Region
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I completely understand what you're saying Syl. Just because something is written doesn't mean it's true. I approach any information with caution and do my best to research it (including feedback from this forum) and going from there. In our situations though (having IBS), we need to be objective an keep an open mind. We've all probably been dealing with our symptoms for years with little, if any help from doctors and have taken to figuring this out on our own. If someone says they've resolved their issues, I think how and what they've done is worth consideration regardless of what we actually call the disease/syndrome etc.
With that said, I consulted with a naturopath today (nothing to to with Candida though as I don't think it's my problem anyway) and the issue of parasites came up. You and I spoke about this before as I mentioned I pursued this with my doctor (for reasons I could explain if needed) but got little interest from him as he said the colonoscopy and/or stool and ova test would have uncovered it. You questioned this logic then as did the naturopath today. She suggested an anti-parasite remedy. Any thoughts on that?
Also I'm going to make a seperate post about something else she talked about called body talk http://www.bodytalksystem.com/ Do you know anything about this?
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IBS-D. Or so a doctor says.
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