"Leaky Gut" and Glutathione
#352897 - 12/01/09 01:21 PM
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PMartin
Reged: 08/05/08
Posts: 140
Loc: Niagara Region
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In my (just like all of yours too I'm sure) constant search for relief, if not resolution from my IBS, I've come across this website and thought you all may want to take a look too...
www.cfsn.com/ibs.html
Of particular interest to me is the Leaky Gut and the role of our Liver and Glutathione in our digestive process. This is because I recently had a frustrating experience with using Cholestyramine where I enjoyed some temporary relief with no explanation available for why it did not last. The cholestyramine is supposed to bind bile acids and decrease their diarrheal effect. While this is associated with your gallbladder (Habba Syndrome), your liver and pancreas also produce bile acids that aid in digestion so I can't help but wonder and feel that there must be some connection here? Fueling this for me is that I know I get a constipating affect from taking protein (for weight training purposes) and it turns out that the 3 Amino acids in Glutathione (Cysteine, Glutamine and Glycine) are all in my protein.
And I even came across this post from a fellow IBS-D sufferer
http://www.ibsgroup.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=112513
and will be looking for a nutraceutical (as she calls it) to try. If anyone out there has dealt with this already I would love to hear from you and any thoughts about some of the other supplements mentioned.
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IBS-D. Or so a doctor says.
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There is no indication in the IBS research literature that leaky gut is associated with IBS or that bile or any particular amino acids or proteins affect or exacerbate IBS symptoms.
I cannot remember if you are IBS-C, IBS-D or IBS-A. Please remind me. It is helpful to put it in you signature. What symptoms in particular are you trying to deal with?
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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I'll say with reluctance that I am IBS-D (thanks for inquiring and I added it to my signature).
I certainly don't have constipation but I think my symptoms are atypical in that I don't have instant or real time reactions to any food in particular. I wake up every morning and over the course of the first couple hours of my day will have multiple BM's with varying degrees of urgency, that are soft and ribbon like.
Would you consider this IBS or do the symptoms present as something else like Leaky Gut?
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IBS-D. Or so a doctor says.
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I believe the Rome III criteria for IBS-D is 3 or more bowel movements per day and for IBS-C is fewer than three bowel movements per week.
With IBS one rarely has instant or real time reactions. The reactions usually don't appear until the offending substance reaches the particular part of the colon where problems are occurring which can take from a 6 to 36 hours.
Your symptoms sounds a lot like mine us to. The ribbons are indicative of bowel spasms. The biggest improvement for me came with some dietary changes. In particular removal of cereal bran from my diet, a major decrease in insoluble fiber and increase in soluble fiber and removal of foods with excess fructose (apples, pears, melons, grapes, honey, etc). Have you ever tried reducing your consumption of foods with excess fructose (i.e more fructose than glucose)?
Leaky gut is a permeability problem with the gut which is typically associated with things Crohn's or celiac disease. There is nothing to indicate it is associated with IBS. As I recall even with leaky gut there is little evidence that dietary intervention is beneficial.
I have been experimenting with melatonin. It is known that it plays a role in sleep but over the past couple of decades it has been found that there is 10 to 100 times as much of produced in the gut than is found in the blood stream coming from the pineal gland. It is now known that melatonin plays a major role in the control of bowel motility and sensation. There is some good clinical evidence to show that 3 mg of melatonin taken at bed time can reduce urgency and pain. I have had pain with my IBS-D for decades. Recently I tried melatonin. After about 10 days the pain and urgency were significantly decreased. I am rather amazed at how well it works for me. Some time soon I will post an overview of the research on melatonin and IBS.
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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The fact that Leaky Gut is different and not considered an IBS issue is partly why I wonder if it's truly IBS that I have. Either way, whatever I have, my goal is to "fix" it.
I do adhere to the EFI diet (most of the time-I'm only human and enjoy a glass of wine or some cheese now and again) and also try to avoid wheat. And after recently coming across FODMAP's, I consulted a Dietitian (I'm done with my family doctor and GI) who was surprised with what/how much I already knew and said I'm already doing everything with my diet that he would recommend anyway and just keep doing what I'm already doing.
I just think (with my body anyway) that there's a definite cause and effect with my digestive enzymes and bile acids whether its the gallbladder, pancreas or liver. This is what I'm going to experiment with as you are with the melatonin. I'm very interested to hear how you make out as one thing I've noticed over the years is that I'm much more stable after a good nights sleep (which has been hard to come by for me with my work shift and 3 young children). To hear you say "clinical evidence shows that 3 mg of melatonin taken at bed time can reduce urgency and pain. I have had pain with my IBS-D for decades. Recently I tried melatonin. After about 10 days the pain and urgency were significantly decreased. I am rather amazed at how well it works for me. Some time soon I will post an overview of the research on melatonin and IBS."
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IBS-D. Or so a doctor says.
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I presume you know that reduction of wheat consumption is a small part of a FODMAP diet. Many individuals don't have any problems with wheat but have difficulty with poorly absorbed carbohydrates such as fructose, sorbitol, etc. Have you tried reducing or eliminating foods particularly fruits with excess fructose?
The melatonin clinical study I referred to was designed to determined with melatonin would improve the sleep habits of IBSers with sleep disturbances. The hypothesis was a better night sleep might improve IBS symptoms. Instead they found that melatonin did not improve sleep measured using a polysomnography and a questionnaire. However, they did find a significant improvement in pain tolerance measured using rectal manometry to measure the pressure at which pain is experienced with increased pressure. Since this study was done the role of melatonin in controlling gut motility and sensation has become a lot clearer.
PS - a good night sleep might occur because your IBS was not as bad instead of a good night sleep making IBS better.
Good luck with your search 
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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What came first...the chicken or the egg  ? This touches on what I was trying to say about having (what i see as) atypical syptoms for IBS (i.e. instant or real-time reactions). I read so many posts about people who suffer from pain, gas, bloating, sleep disturbance and even having to run to the bathroom almost immediately after eating a trigger food. I don't get any of that...just the same symptoms every morning. That's too bad (for me anyway-good news for others I'm sure) as I was hoping there was something there with the Melatonin study.
As for my diet, it would probably be quicker for me to tell you what I do eat than what I don't. For example, NO fruit or vegetables...not one. Besides the EFI diet, I'm completely aware of Fructose, Fructans, Lactose, Galactans and Polyols.
Where I'm at now is revisiting what and why I do some of the things I do and perhaps finding a more effective way to do them. For example, I take calcium but kind of forgot why and came across a post http://www.ibsgroup.org/forums/index.php?act=Msg&CODE=03&VID=in&MSID=13028 that made me examine if I was/am maximizing its potential. And like I said, I'm not sure if I have Leaky Gut, but I see no harm in looking into the role of Antioxidants, primarily Glutathione, Amino Acids like cysteine, glutamine and glycine (which make up glutathione), Taurine which can enhance bile formation, detoxifies chlorine and yeast toxins. Then there's digestive enzymes and have you heard of Bentonite Clay? Supposedly it has a long history as a bowel cleanser. Technically described as an "adsorbent", the clay is not digested nor absorbed by the human. Rather it pulls things large and small away from the gut lining. This can produce relief as irritants are removed from reactive contact and taken out of the bowel as part of the stool. Two cautions: if taken too close to food or food supplements, bentonite can steal the nutritive value by its adsorbent action. People who tend to constipate risk developing a serious plug if constipation pulls all the water out of the bentonite. Once a day away from food and supplements is generally the most one wants to take this clay.
Just putting it out there
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IBS-D. Or so a doctor says.
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PMartin - IBS can look different in different people. Many IBSers have the most problems in the morning, as you describe. I certainly don't have any direct reactions to foods, with the exception of too much fat in one sitting. That can make me feel sick to my stomach and start a chain reaction pretty rapidly. If you fit the Rome Criteria and your doctors have ruled out other serious causes of chronic diarrhea, then you most likely have IBS.
I've been strictly following the EFI diet for nearly 4 months and have not found relief from my IBS symptoms. It sounds like you've been severely restricting your diet and not getting anywhere either. I've recently found a direct correlation with my IBS symptoms and emotional upsets. It takes about 12-15 hours after an upset to see a flare up of symptoms, but the flare can last for days. Once things are in motion, nothing can stop them except time.
Are you still reading "The Divided Mind" by John Sarno? That book really speaks to me and I think explains the cause of my symptoms. I finished that book and am now reading "The Mindbody Prescription", another book by Sarno that discusses the same concepts, but in a slightly more simplistic approach. I am also working through his daily treatment plan which requires reflecting and writing on the possible causes of rage in the unconscious mind, and also rereading parts of his book frequently to remind you of how emotional turmoil triggers physical symptoms.
A few of us are discussing Sarno's theories on a separate Ning site (because we are not interested in debating their validity), and we'd love to have you join the discussion. Email me at frygurl@gmail.com and I will send you an invitation to join.
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Now I am confused.
Instant or real time reactions can occur and they are not atypical IBS symptoms. Delayed reactions can occur and they are not atypical IBS symptoms.
For some people with IBS merely the process of eating which stimulates the release of hormones and neurotransmitters that affect the colon. You may find this video interview with Prof Whorwell on Diet, eating and IBS who discusses this fact of some interest. In other instances there can be a 6-36 hour delay before there are symptoms so for people like you and I the reaction is delayed by many hours.
Yes - I have heard of Bentonite clay - an absorbent, expanding clay similar to kitty litter - commonly found in colon cleansing products which are not recommeded for IBSers. You may want to use it with caution.
It would be helpful to know what you eat for typical meals and snacks?
If you think you might have a leaky gut why not ask you doctor for a test? There are variety of ways to test the permeability of the intestine.
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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I'd be happy to partake in the discussion and will email you shortly. Thank-you.
I think whenever someone's IBS starts (or most problems that anyone might have for that matter), their first reaction is to look for a physical cause and then the associated remedy. Unfortunately with IBS as too many of us have found out, it's not that easy. I was/am aware of the mind body connection and Sarno explains it very convincingly in "The Divided Mind." I have visited a Hypnotherapist and use reading and audio material also. In my case, while I've had my share of hard or difficult times, there's nothing serious like abuse or the death of someone close to me etc. Nothing that stands out and would obviously be the cause of regression or repression. I feel I'm limited to saying that IBS is just how my body deals with the basic stress of day to day life and there's not much more I can do about it from a Mind Body perspective. With that said, I have not finished the book yet (time to myself is very limited) and would never say never or close the door on any possible way of looking at or approaching something. For now, I'm making progress with stabilizing the IBS.
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IBS-D. Or so a doctor says.
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I've just been under the impression that typical IBS-D, will present with reactions/symptoms in a timely concurrence to ingesting trigger foods. If I'm mistaken and a delayed reaction is just as bona fide then thank-you for the clarification.
Breakfast: oatmeal with a little brown sugar and rice milk or a protein shake.
Lunch: protein shake if I didn't have it for breakfast, something light like rice crackers or nothing (I'll just wait until I get to work at 3:00).
Afternoon: this is when I'll graze on foods available at work like already cooked shrimp, maybe cook some scallops or a chicken breast.
Dinner: White Rice, rice noodles or plain baked potato with either fish or chicken (some red meat once in a while).
Late Night (I work until 11:30pm): rice crackers, protein shake
I do not eat/drink: coffee, tea, pop, (caffeine or carbonation), fruit juices, dairy, fruit or vegetables.
My one/biggest vice is a beer or wine every now and then otherwise I drink water or rice milk.
I will be pursuing the leaky gut.
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IBS-D. Or so a doctor says.
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I have the odd glass of wine and beer too
Say - do the rice crackers contain brown rice flour or just white rice flour?
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Frygirl
#352977 - 12/03/09 02:15 PM
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Gerikat
Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 1285
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Has anyone ever told you that your writing is beautiful? It has a flow ot it.
Anyway, I was wondering how you are enjoying the next book you are reading by Sarno. I tried to get it from my library, but they don't have it. I can get it at B&N, but I wondered if it is worth it to buy it. Does it rehash what he has already said, or is there more info?
Thanks
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Gerikat, I am touched by your lovely, unexpected compliment. Thank you! I use to write constantly when I was younger, but found different interests in college and beyond. Just recently I've been thinking of getting back to it. Wouldn't it be awesome to write the next Twilight or Harry Potter? 
Good question on the Mindbody Prescription. I am enjoying reading it, but I would say I got more out of the Divided Mind (but then again, that was the first time I'd been exposed to Sarno's theories). I am mainly reading it because I am interested in learning more about TMS equivalents such as IBS, and he does discuss these a bit more in the Mindbody Prescription. I also find it solidifies my understanding of his theory to read more on the subject. I think I paid $10 for the book from Amazon, so if you can get it for that or cheaper, I think it's worth it.
Renee and I have started a discussion on the Ning site - we hope you'll join in. You always have great contributions.
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Thanks. I will get the book since it touches a little more on the equivalents such as IBS.
Yes, get to writing that book!
I intend to get to Ning, but time hasn't allowed me lately. Are you guys in chat or just posting on the forum? It would be nice to get some people in chat, if we named a time for everyone to meet. I am on EST, what are you?
Thanks for the compliment. I do try to contribute, but I tend to get bent out of shape at times, especially at those that poo-poo an alternative view/therapy, without even truly investigating it, or giving it a try. You know what I mean, don't you?
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We've started a forum discussion, but it would be nice to get together to chat. I am actually on PST, which makes it difficult for us to get together. I'm not working full time, so I could be on in the late afternoon, if evening suits everyone else on the east coast.
And yes - I know what you mean.
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PST is 3 hours difference? I am sure we can work it out to be there one evening.
Well, I just went to the Ning site and posted. It is just you, Renee and I so far, but I am sure we can get other like-minded souls. It is nice to discuss so openly. )
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I wish I could answer that as I've wondered too but the ingredients just say Rice. This is a problem I have with my milk as well as I can not find one that doesn't have brown rice.
I did a little more research on the Bentonite Clay and kind of wish I hadn't. First of all, there's no consensus on who or what IBS it may help with different sources saying it's good for D but not C and vice versa. I somehow got to looking at Neomycin...again contradictory reports and I ended up getting into SIBO. What a merry go round  My head is spinning.
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IBS-D. Or so a doctor says.
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I am not certain that the liquid extracted from brown rice for rice milk should be a problem since it doesn't contain the bran which gets filtered out during packaging. Brown rice flour on the other hand will contain bran. Over the years I have experimented with small amounts of bran and found that even the smallest amount causes problems.
Don't let SIBO spin your head too much Over the past couple of years it has been clearly demonstrated that the lactulose breath test that has been conventionally used to determine the presence of SIBO is invalid. It potential role in IBS now appears to be quite limited. If you decide to get tested for SIBO make sure they use a glucose breath test instead of a lactulose breath test.
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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What's your take on a Hydrogen breath test Syl? This is the best I can get in my area which actually has me driving an hour to get there.
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IBS-D. Or so a doctor says.
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I presume you mean a breath test for SIBO. It depends on what they uses as the source of carbohydrate for the SIBO test. The standard SIBO test used lactulose and looked for an early rise in hydrogen levels in the breath test. They now know that an early rise in hydrogen after ingestion of lactulose is a normal response even individuals without SIBO. In an open on-line discussion with IBS experts from UNC I asked Dr. Drossman - a member of the Rome Foundation that designed the Rome III criteria used to diagnosis IBS - what was the best test for SIBO. He said that the hydrogen breath test using glucose as the carbohydrate source was the best. Again he re-iterated that the relationship between SIBO and IBS is tenuous at best.
If you decide to have a SIBO test please tell us how it goes.
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Syl - as usual I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about this....I await patiently 
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IBS-D & bloating.
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Thanks for the info and I'll certainly let you know how it turns out. I have to go to my GP for a referral (and put up with his reluctance like I'm bothering him) and then who knows how long it will take from there 
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IBS-D. Or so a doctor says.
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Soon
#353002 - 12/04/09 11:05 AM
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Syl
Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA
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Even thought I am retired currently I am a bit busy doing some international contract work. It should slow down in the next few days. When it does I will prepare the overview on melatonin.
Say - are you still taking a probiotic?
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Re: Soon
#353003 - 12/04/09 12:02 PM
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jhuggs
Reged: 03/18/09
Posts: 88
Loc: Erie, PA
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I stopped taking it about 6 months ago and haven't noticed a difference...how about you?
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IBS-D & bloating.
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Re: Soon
#353004 - 12/04/09 12:29 PM
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Syl
Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA
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I quite taking in summer because I always have less problems in the summer time. I have not restarted.
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Syl,
I have to wonder what the correlation between Vitamin D deficiency during winter months and the bodily melantonin supply is?
I garden and/or are outdoors a lot during the sunshine months of spring, summer, and into fall. However once winter sets in here, I have Seasonal Adjustment Disorder (SAD), and I find taking an extra Vitamin D supplement can help offset this somewhat.
Even so, I'm going back on the Melatonin, as this really DID help me sleep better at night, given the winter days are so short and there are more hours of darkness here than light. I sometimes tend to nap some during the day which doesn't help anything during the dark winter days. I do this as if I were a baby with my days and nights totally mixed up. I would prefer to get better zzz's at night and stay awake during the day.
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Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff
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Vitamin D is produced by the skin in sunlight. The melatonin that affects sleep is produced in the pineal gland during the dark. Both of these are known to affect SAD.
However, melatonin that affects GI motility and sensitivity is produced by cells in the GI track. These cells produce 10 to 100 times as much melatonin than is found in the blood from the pineal gland. This melatonin does not contribute to sleep because it works locally and does not enter the blood stream. A recent study found that IBSers with sleep disorders that took 3 mg of melatonin at bed time had relief from pain and urgency but it had no affect on sleep. Perhaps the quality of sleep was better because the GI symptoms during sleep were better.
I am going to write a long post on melatonin and IBS in a few days.
Thanks for your note.
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Good morning Syl!
What you wrote here makes perfect sense to me, and I am looking forward to your further expansion on melatonin. Hopefully you will make that a new post so that this one doesn't get too long...
In any case, and speaking from personal experience, when I have taken 3 mg of melatonin in the past, I WAS drowsy within 30 minutes. If I attempted to stay up longer working on my computer, I kept 'nodding off' sitting up. For me, it was definitely a sleeping aid and no doubt also helped control my gastrointestinal contractions during the night as well (unknown to me). At that time I had not been experiencing any present GI symptoms, just needed to sleep more soundly. Even so, it could have been GI contractions unknown to me that was causing my inability to fall asleep easily in the first place.
The bottom line... with 3 mg of melatonin I fell asleep in 30 minutes and slept extremely well for at least 6 hours.
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Senior female, IBS-D, presently stable thanks to Heather & Staff
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Yes, Windchimes, melatonin works for me also, but not for any IBS symptoms. I have to take 4 mg and I have to take it at least 1 to 1 1/2 hours before bed.
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