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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328480 - 04/19/08 09:24 AM
Sand

Reged: 12/13/04
Posts: 4490
Loc: West Orange, NJ (IBS-D)

Quote:

I actually believe that there's a lot of science in this. Even Heather explains that the reason dairy is on the trigger list are the proteins (beside fat and lactose). That's what makes me wonder about this exact same protein in dairy substitutes.




I think casein can be tolerated in dairy substitutes because there is less of it in, say, soy cheese than there is in milk-based cheese. I can't figure out a way to nail this down beyond question. I do know that the main ingredient in soy-based cheeses is soy so it seems logical to assume that the bulk of the protein comes from that rather than from casein whereas in milk-based cheeses all the protein comes from milk (18-20% whey, 80-82% casein apparently).

I did a little poking around and you can find other sources that say casein may be hard to digest. I thought this Family Doctor article was really interesting (although I have no means of judging how knowledgeable the poster is):
web page

The only other source I found that says whey may be difficult to digest is Dr. Weil who I usually find less than helpful on IBS issues:
web page

Beyond that I agree with everything Little Minnie said. I think Heather's guidelines are the place to start and then if you find you can expand those a little, great. If you have to cut out some stuff she says is okay, ouch. (Oatmeal. I just can't do oatmeal.)

I think of the EFI Diet as a "most" kind of thing. Most IBSers can't handle these triggers. Most IBSers can use these foods as an SF base. Most IBSers can handle a little milk protein in their dairy substitutes. Most IBSers can't tolerate too much fat. There are always exceptions. Based on watching the Boards for the past few years, I don't think there's a single food on the SF list that *someone* hasn't reported a problem with - including plain white rice. At the other extreme, there is always someone who reports they can eat one trigger food or another and do fine.

I also agree with LM that science is not as helpful as I'd like. Heather's approach is based on experience - hers and others who've followed her approach and done well. I think it's more anecdotal than scientific which is why we can always have such wonderful fights about things like how much water to drink, whether soy is the spawn of Satan, and the always popular classic "Can I eat cheese?" Saying that casein and whey cause digestive problems for (again) "most" IBSers isn't really science to me - it's description. When my doctor can tell me *why* my gut can't handle them, that will be science. And when he can tell me what to do about it, that will be a miracle.

So I say if you're feeling stable and think you might be able to handle dairy, give it a whirl. If you have no trouble with a little bit of it, great. If you do, then you'll have to do a more experimenting to determine if the problem is the fat, the lactose, or some other component.

HTH.

Quote:

From FAQs
Dairy is an IBS trigger even if you're not lactose intolerant. It's simply not just the lactose. It's also not just the high fat content of most dairy products that can cause your IBS to flare. Even skim and lactose-free dairy can trigger IBS attacks. In addition to fat and lactose, dairy contains components such as the proteins whey and casein, which can cause severe digestion problems.




--------------------
[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328489 - 04/19/08 02:03 PM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095


I can't find the place in the first article that mentions why casein or whey is a problem, or could be one.

Plus, Zara stated
Quote:

I'm not new to the EFI diet and I did follow it to the T for a couple months with only moderate results


so, what to do when that happens?

--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328505 - 04/19/08 05:06 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota

Quote:


I also agree with LM that science is not as helpful as I'd like. Heather's approach is based on experience - hers and others who've followed her approach and done well. I think it's more anecdotal than scientific which is why we can always have such wonderful fights about things like how much water to drink, whether soy is the spawn of Satan, and the always popular classic "Can I eat cheese?" Saying that casein and whey cause digestive problems for (again) "most" IBSers isn't really science to me - it's description. When my doctor can tell me *why* my gut can't handle them, that will be science. And when he can tell me what to do about it, that will be a miracle.




Very excellently put! When science comes through with a cure I will be a believer. Until then I use common sense, caution, and trial and error. When you hear people say things like I can eat egg beaters but not egg whites or vice versa, for example, you start to think there is more to how our guts react. I know some of my views on it are not popular here but I feel strongly about the 'irritable' nature of IBS and the factors of stress and other behavioral triggers (causing problems when our diets are as safe as we can get them.)

--------------------
IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328506 - 04/19/08 05:11 PM
Zara

Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 883


Sand, thank you for the reply and for those links . The percentage of casein contained in soy substitutes and regular dairy makes sense; I never thought about it in that way.

I also agree that the EFI diet is a good place to start, I never said otherwise. But I also believe that many of us also may have problems with things that the majority of IBS-ers can tolerate (such as oatmeal for you). That's why I'm trying to identify my own potential triggers, in addition to generally sticking to the EFI diet. One of my biggest problems is bloating and the pain associated with it. The EFI diet was written by a person who didn't suffer bloating. That's great, but it also makes me believe that I need to take other things out of my diet, foods that are generally considered safe for a non-bloating IBS-er but not me. That doesn't mean that I'm going to say that the diet did nothing for me. I'm glad to have found this website years ago, and I have purchase some of Heather's products and read all her books (multiple times). I learned many helpful tips and principles here, I just feel like I need to keep searching because I never got completely better.

I didn't want to make this thread sound like I can't wait to go on a dairy-eating craze . My main point was that since dairy is a trigger, if proteins usually found in dairy that are added to dairy-substitutes would also cause problems. I had managed to go months without dairy and I only tested it recently to see the results (which were bad but there were a lot of other factors that could have affected this "test"). I am back to dairy free now. I will give it another shot in the future, however, once I'm more stable.

--------------------
IBS-C, bloating, cramps
pregnant

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328513 - 04/19/08 07:28 PM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095


Quote:

When you hear people say things like I can eat egg beaters but not egg whites or vice versa, for example, you start to think there is more to how our guts react




What is the answer to this situation?

--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328515 - 04/19/08 07:51 PM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095


Quote:

I didn't want to make this thread sound like I can't wait to go on a dairy-eating craze . My main point was that since dairy is a trigger, if proteins usually found in dairy that are added to dairy-substitutes would also cause problems.


This was my fault, not yours, Zara. Sorry.

--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328520 - 04/20/08 04:31 AM
Zara

Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 883


Oh no, no apologies needed, plus I think my post came across that way. That's one of the problems with internet discussions - we can't see the other person's non-verbal communication signs such as smiles, tone of voice, etc. That's why sometimes posts might sound more serious or harsher then they are. Thank God for smileys !

--------------------
IBS-C, bloating, cramps
pregnant

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328522 - 04/20/08 07:02 AM
Sand

Reged: 12/13/04
Posts: 4490
Loc: West Orange, NJ (IBS-D)

Quote:

I also agree that the EFI diet is a good place to start, I never said otherwise.




And I certainly didn't mean to imply that you had said otherwise. (You know, we could do this all day. How about if we just agree that neither of us is being difficult - just communicating as best we can with nothing at our command but ink and silly little faces. )

Quote:

I didn't want to make this thread sound like I can't wait to go on a dairy-eating craze .




Well I would certainly understand if that *was* the case. I was never a big cheese eater but sometimes I just yearn for nothing so much as a loaf of French bread and a wedge of Brie. Sigh.

Quote:

I had managed to go months without dairy and I only tested it recently to see the results (which were bad but there were a lot of other factors that could have affected this "test"). I am back to dairy free now. I will give it another shot in the future, however, once I'm more stable.




It can be awfully difficult to sort out what the problem is. I hope your next test with dairy works out better.

Take care.


--------------------
[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328524 - 04/20/08 07:29 AM
Sand

Reged: 12/13/04
Posts: 4490
Loc: West Orange, NJ (IBS-D)

Quote:

I know some of my views on it are not popular here but I feel strongly about the 'irritable' nature of IBS and the factors of stress and other behavioral triggers (causing problems when our diets are as safe as we can get them.)




If I'm following what you're saying, I think this is a very interesting point and one I've thought about a lot lately. I suspect that for each IBSer the extent to which symptoms are a result of eating "wrong" as opposed to the result of stress varies. For example, my symptoms seems to be about 90% food-related and only 10% stress related. This is good for me because it means that if I eat appropriately I'm in pretty good shape even under stress. From what I read on here, though, it sounds like for other people stress is more of a factor. That may mean that no matter how carefully they eat, getting stress under control is more vital for them than for me. At the extremes I suppose there could be people whose IBS is all food and others whose IBS is all stress.

And don't feel bad. I suspect my views aren't popular either. I always find what you say interesting and helpful.


--------------------
[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]

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Re: The bad about dairy - anyone explain? new
      #328526 - 04/20/08 08:43 AM
kim123

Reged: 07/18/06
Posts: 543
Loc: Florida

I was wondering if anyone out there tried goat's milk, and if you were able to tolerate it? Is it the same as cow's milk, or is it more user-friendly? I'm thinking of trying some, but it probably is much more costly.

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