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The bad about dairy - anyone explain?
      #328386 - 04/17/08 11:32 AM
Zara

Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 883


So I'm wondering, according to the EFI diet, the problem with dairy is mainly the proteins (casein, whey), right? Fat is not the issue because we can get fat-free dairy, and lactose is not the issue because we can either take lactase or aren't lactose intolerant. So it really comes down to the protein.
So how come that dairy substitutes such as soy cheese or rice cheese so often contain casein? Would these pose the exact same risk as if we were to eat regular dairy because of the protein content?
I'm by no means trying to discredit the diet, I'm just the kind of a person who needs to know exactly "why" to make herself stick to the diet. Lately I've been SO tempted to cheat...oh well.

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pregnant

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Re: The bad about dairy - anyone explain? new
      #328399 - 04/17/08 03:33 PM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095


My dietician, who specializes in GI problems actually highly recommeded eating yogurt....specifically Stonyfield or Activia. She said there is no proof dairy is bad for everyone with IBS if you don't test positive for lactose intolerance.

Not that this answers your question. And not that I have been daring enough to try it.

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Re: The bad about dairy - anyone explain? new
      #328416 - 04/18/08 04:32 AM
Zara

Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 883


Jordy, you're right, it doesn't answer my question but it proofs the point I'm making here - so many different approaches out there! That's why I need to know why the protein is bad in milk but then OK when added to soy cheese.

I wish someone had an answer

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Re: The bad about dairy - anyone explain? new
      #328417 - 04/18/08 05:04 AM
Emily H.

Reged: 02/28/05
Posts: 83
Loc: Luxembourg, LU

Casein and whey are deadly for me in anything - even soy cheese, so I definitely follow the EFI guidelines about dairy. That said, I know other people with it who are more or less fine with dairy. To be honest, I think it's an entirely individual thing whether or not you tolerate it, but Heather is right that for the vast majority of us, dairy is completely bad. That said, I've asked exactly the same question of my GI, and all I got was a condescending explanation about what lactose intolerance is. She actually couldn't explain why certain foods trigger IBS - tried to explain all of my examples (red meat, eggs, dairy) away by telling me that those were separate allergies I was incorrectly attributing to IBS.

(The doctor in this case is Dr. Susan Lucak, who's supposed to be an expert.)

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Re: The bad about dairy - anyone explain? new
      #328420 - 04/18/08 05:54 AM
binok

Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 27
Loc: CT

What does EFI stand for?

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Re: The bad about dairy - anyone explain? new
      #328421 - 04/18/08 05:55 AM

Unregistered




Zara I wonder the same thing....dairy is tricky. To be honest, I'm fine with a piece of cheese on a sandwich and even pizza....shhh! But I cheated and ate ice cream and WOW what an awful attack that gave me....

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EFI = Eating For IBS -nt- new
      #328423 - 04/18/08 07:04 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA



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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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Re: The bad about dairy - anyone explain? new
      #328431 - 04/18/08 08:54 AM
Zara

Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 883


Emily - yes, many doctors seem to really account everything to lactose int. so they're like, "you tested negative so go ahead and eat all the dairy you want".

jhuggs - my problem is that I can't figure it out on my own. I think that I'd also be fine with a bit of dairy as a part of a meal, but I'm allways "all or nothing". So I either avoid it or eat a lot (a cup of yogurt, several cubes of cheese...). I really need to try just a few bites with a meal.

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the proof is in the pudding new
      #328464 - 04/18/08 07:21 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota

No pun intended. You have to use common sense. Perhaps little bits of things are well tolerated for many IBSers but at a certain point you may have problems. The EFI diet is about playing it safe really, to give yourself the best chance you can have. For me science is NOT a big part of it. Why? because there is no science behind IBS. There is nothing physically wrong with someone with IBS. The gut functions improperly and we do the best with it for the most part. When science can explain and cure it that will be great! But until then do what works for you and start with what works for most people. Start with Heather's guidelines and see how you do and what else bothers you.
Personally I can handle a little shaving of parmesan very well and the casein in soy cheese; both things on occassion only. I have gotten very sick from ice cream and brie cheese when I have wanted to be normal and just eat them. So that is my reasoning. I prefer to play it safe rather than deliberate on proteins not being proven hard to digest or egg yolks being ok for some or yogurt supposedly being good for you. There is so much information out there to mess a person up and we all know how things can go from good for you to bad for you week by week so I do what works for me.

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IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328471 - 04/19/08 03:30 AM
Zara

Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 883


Tamara, thanks for the input. I'm not new to the EFI diet and I did follow it to the T for a couple months with only moderate results. I was already eating very low fat before starting the diet so maybe that's why I didn't feel significantly better afterwards. I am using my common sense and that's exactly why I'm looking for answers and explanation. The EFI diet doesn't work for me "as is" and that's why I need to tweak it a little. So I'm wondering, since they're are additional things that I need to cut out of my diet because they trigger a reaction, if that also means that some of the "triggers" as they're listed may not really be triggers for me.
I actually believe that there's a lot of science in this. Even Heather explains that the reason dairy is on the trigger list are the proteins (beside fat and lactose). That's what makes me wonder about this exact same protein in dairy substitutes.
I'm just trying to eat as many things as I can tolerate without unnecessarily cutting out everything I used to love (provided it's not a trigger for me). As we all know, the right diet for us is very hard to figure out .

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328480 - 04/19/08 09:24 AM
Sand

Reged: 12/13/04
Posts: 4490
Loc: West Orange, NJ (IBS-D)

Quote:

I actually believe that there's a lot of science in this. Even Heather explains that the reason dairy is on the trigger list are the proteins (beside fat and lactose). That's what makes me wonder about this exact same protein in dairy substitutes.




I think casein can be tolerated in dairy substitutes because there is less of it in, say, soy cheese than there is in milk-based cheese. I can't figure out a way to nail this down beyond question. I do know that the main ingredient in soy-based cheeses is soy so it seems logical to assume that the bulk of the protein comes from that rather than from casein whereas in milk-based cheeses all the protein comes from milk (18-20% whey, 80-82% casein apparently).

I did a little poking around and you can find other sources that say casein may be hard to digest. I thought this Family Doctor article was really interesting (although I have no means of judging how knowledgeable the poster is):
web page

The only other source I found that says whey may be difficult to digest is Dr. Weil who I usually find less than helpful on IBS issues:
web page

Beyond that I agree with everything Little Minnie said. I think Heather's guidelines are the place to start and then if you find you can expand those a little, great. If you have to cut out some stuff she says is okay, ouch. (Oatmeal. I just can't do oatmeal.)

I think of the EFI Diet as a "most" kind of thing. Most IBSers can't handle these triggers. Most IBSers can use these foods as an SF base. Most IBSers can handle a little milk protein in their dairy substitutes. Most IBSers can't tolerate too much fat. There are always exceptions. Based on watching the Boards for the past few years, I don't think there's a single food on the SF list that *someone* hasn't reported a problem with - including plain white rice. At the other extreme, there is always someone who reports they can eat one trigger food or another and do fine.

I also agree with LM that science is not as helpful as I'd like. Heather's approach is based on experience - hers and others who've followed her approach and done well. I think it's more anecdotal than scientific which is why we can always have such wonderful fights about things like how much water to drink, whether soy is the spawn of Satan, and the always popular classic "Can I eat cheese?" Saying that casein and whey cause digestive problems for (again) "most" IBSers isn't really science to me - it's description. When my doctor can tell me *why* my gut can't handle them, that will be science. And when he can tell me what to do about it, that will be a miracle.

So I say if you're feeling stable and think you might be able to handle dairy, give it a whirl. If you have no trouble with a little bit of it, great. If you do, then you'll have to do a more experimenting to determine if the problem is the fat, the lactose, or some other component.

HTH.

Quote:

From FAQs
Dairy is an IBS trigger even if you're not lactose intolerant. It's simply not just the lactose. It's also not just the high fat content of most dairy products that can cause your IBS to flare. Even skim and lactose-free dairy can trigger IBS attacks. In addition to fat and lactose, dairy contains components such as the proteins whey and casein, which can cause severe digestion problems.




--------------------
[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328489 - 04/19/08 02:03 PM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095


I can't find the place in the first article that mentions why casein or whey is a problem, or could be one.

Plus, Zara stated
Quote:

I'm not new to the EFI diet and I did follow it to the T for a couple months with only moderate results


so, what to do when that happens?

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328505 - 04/19/08 05:06 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota

Quote:


I also agree with LM that science is not as helpful as I'd like. Heather's approach is based on experience - hers and others who've followed her approach and done well. I think it's more anecdotal than scientific which is why we can always have such wonderful fights about things like how much water to drink, whether soy is the spawn of Satan, and the always popular classic "Can I eat cheese?" Saying that casein and whey cause digestive problems for (again) "most" IBSers isn't really science to me - it's description. When my doctor can tell me *why* my gut can't handle them, that will be science. And when he can tell me what to do about it, that will be a miracle.




Very excellently put! When science comes through with a cure I will be a believer. Until then I use common sense, caution, and trial and error. When you hear people say things like I can eat egg beaters but not egg whites or vice versa, for example, you start to think there is more to how our guts react. I know some of my views on it are not popular here but I feel strongly about the 'irritable' nature of IBS and the factors of stress and other behavioral triggers (causing problems when our diets are as safe as we can get them.)

--------------------
IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328506 - 04/19/08 05:11 PM
Zara

Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 883


Sand, thank you for the reply and for those links . The percentage of casein contained in soy substitutes and regular dairy makes sense; I never thought about it in that way.

I also agree that the EFI diet is a good place to start, I never said otherwise. But I also believe that many of us also may have problems with things that the majority of IBS-ers can tolerate (such as oatmeal for you). That's why I'm trying to identify my own potential triggers, in addition to generally sticking to the EFI diet. One of my biggest problems is bloating and the pain associated with it. The EFI diet was written by a person who didn't suffer bloating. That's great, but it also makes me believe that I need to take other things out of my diet, foods that are generally considered safe for a non-bloating IBS-er but not me. That doesn't mean that I'm going to say that the diet did nothing for me. I'm glad to have found this website years ago, and I have purchase some of Heather's products and read all her books (multiple times). I learned many helpful tips and principles here, I just feel like I need to keep searching because I never got completely better.

I didn't want to make this thread sound like I can't wait to go on a dairy-eating craze . My main point was that since dairy is a trigger, if proteins usually found in dairy that are added to dairy-substitutes would also cause problems. I had managed to go months without dairy and I only tested it recently to see the results (which were bad but there were a lot of other factors that could have affected this "test"). I am back to dairy free now. I will give it another shot in the future, however, once I'm more stable.

--------------------
IBS-C, bloating, cramps
pregnant

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328513 - 04/19/08 07:28 PM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095


Quote:

When you hear people say things like I can eat egg beaters but not egg whites or vice versa, for example, you start to think there is more to how our guts react




What is the answer to this situation?

--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328515 - 04/19/08 07:51 PM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095


Quote:

I didn't want to make this thread sound like I can't wait to go on a dairy-eating craze . My main point was that since dairy is a trigger, if proteins usually found in dairy that are added to dairy-substitutes would also cause problems.


This was my fault, not yours, Zara. Sorry.

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328520 - 04/20/08 04:31 AM
Zara

Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 883


Oh no, no apologies needed, plus I think my post came across that way. That's one of the problems with internet discussions - we can't see the other person's non-verbal communication signs such as smiles, tone of voice, etc. That's why sometimes posts might sound more serious or harsher then they are. Thank God for smileys !

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IBS-C, bloating, cramps
pregnant

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328522 - 04/20/08 07:02 AM
Sand

Reged: 12/13/04
Posts: 4490
Loc: West Orange, NJ (IBS-D)

Quote:

I also agree that the EFI diet is a good place to start, I never said otherwise.




And I certainly didn't mean to imply that you had said otherwise. (You know, we could do this all day. How about if we just agree that neither of us is being difficult - just communicating as best we can with nothing at our command but ink and silly little faces. )

Quote:

I didn't want to make this thread sound like I can't wait to go on a dairy-eating craze .




Well I would certainly understand if that *was* the case. I was never a big cheese eater but sometimes I just yearn for nothing so much as a loaf of French bread and a wedge of Brie. Sigh.

Quote:

I had managed to go months without dairy and I only tested it recently to see the results (which were bad but there were a lot of other factors that could have affected this "test"). I am back to dairy free now. I will give it another shot in the future, however, once I'm more stable.




It can be awfully difficult to sort out what the problem is. I hope your next test with dairy works out better.

Take care.


--------------------
[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328524 - 04/20/08 07:29 AM
Sand

Reged: 12/13/04
Posts: 4490
Loc: West Orange, NJ (IBS-D)

Quote:

I know some of my views on it are not popular here but I feel strongly about the 'irritable' nature of IBS and the factors of stress and other behavioral triggers (causing problems when our diets are as safe as we can get them.)




If I'm following what you're saying, I think this is a very interesting point and one I've thought about a lot lately. I suspect that for each IBSer the extent to which symptoms are a result of eating "wrong" as opposed to the result of stress varies. For example, my symptoms seems to be about 90% food-related and only 10% stress related. This is good for me because it means that if I eat appropriately I'm in pretty good shape even under stress. From what I read on here, though, it sounds like for other people stress is more of a factor. That may mean that no matter how carefully they eat, getting stress under control is more vital for them than for me. At the extremes I suppose there could be people whose IBS is all food and others whose IBS is all stress.

And don't feel bad. I suspect my views aren't popular either. I always find what you say interesting and helpful.


--------------------
[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]

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Re: The bad about dairy - anyone explain? new
      #328526 - 04/20/08 08:43 AM
kim123

Reged: 07/18/06
Posts: 543
Loc: Florida

I was wondering if anyone out there tried goat's milk, and if you were able to tolerate it? Is it the same as cow's milk, or is it more user-friendly? I'm thinking of trying some, but it probably is much more costly.

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Re: the proof is in the pudding new
      #328532 - 04/20/08 12:26 PM
Zara

Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 883


Quote:

Quote:

I also agree that the EFI diet is a good place to start, I never said otherwise.




And I certainly didn't mean to imply that you had said otherwise. (You know, we could do this all day. How about if we just agree that neither of us is being difficult - just communicating as best we can with nothing at our command but ink and silly little faces. )






yup, let's agree on that

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Re: The bad about dairy - anyone explain? new
      #328533 - 04/20/08 12:29 PM
Zara

Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 883


Quote:

I was wondering if anyone out there tried goat's milk, and if you were able to tolerate it? Is it the same as cow's milk, or is it more user-friendly? I'm thinking of trying some, but it probably is much more costly.




I heard that's goat's milk is easier to tolerate but I don't remember why. I think that if anyone has problems with cow milk even in small quantities they would still have problems with goat milk. Of course, there's only one way to find out . Good luck!

--------------------
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Re: The bad about dairy - anyone explain? new
      #328536 - 04/20/08 12:45 PM
catnut

Reged: 04/08/07
Posts: 106
Loc: Kentucky, USA

I've tried it and can't stand the taste of it. Like everything else it depends on you and your gut as to whether it works for you or not. Try it once and see. You have to keep experimenting with different foods.

--------------------
Catnut IBS-C for many years, finally diagnosed in 2005. Wheat and dairy sensative.

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trying to figure out bloating new
      #328616 - 04/21/08 04:49 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota

Trying to figure out bloating is like trying to decode the most intricate cyphers in history! The diet hasn't really helped me with it, but if I go off I get D and C, so I feel it does work. Being it is bloating you are troubled by, things will be much more confusing. I don't think it is a case of here where the originator of the diet doesn't have bloating we don't know what to do about it. EVERYWHERE you go has no solution to bloating. My doctor has nothing to help me with bloating at all and neither does medicine in general or special diets (none that work or are healthy anyway). That is the bad news and there is no good news I'm afraid.

--------------------
IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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stress and the rest new
      #328617 - 04/21/08 04:57 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota

I hear ya. The thing with non-food related IBS issues is that there is this idea that 'I feel bad so it was something I ate', when, as I have said many times, you can eat the same thing every day and have a good day then a bad and then a good and so on. So common sense needs to factor in and sometimes a 'gut' instinct. Sometimes you eat something and as it hits your throat you suspect it won't agree with you. Sometimes you eat things you eat all the time and have terrible grumbles or bloating. So my advice to all is to definitely pay attention to what you eat and definitely muster all your self-control, but don't think that your IBS will be cured by finding all the problem foods OR that if you have trouble it was some (usually safe) food you ate. I truly hope this helps anyone out there with discomfort.

--------------------
IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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Re: trying to figure out bloating new
      #328621 - 04/21/08 05:16 PM
Zara

Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 883


Yeah, bloating is so hard to conquer. My doctor gave me a handout today for a low gas diet. I tried it a few years ago but I will give it another try. I can be more careful now about introducing new foods than I was back then because I'm more educated about what food groups do and don't cause gas, etc. If it works I will definitely post it here . It's nothing major, starting with chicken and rice and adding new things and watching symptoms. It is similar to Heather's BTC diet but it doesn't allow wheat and fruit in the beginning.
I believe there's good new for us - it just has to be discovered. That's what I keep telling myself when I'm feeling down. That it's not forever and that one day I will be able to manage most of my symptoms through a diet. I just can't imagine living the next 50 years like this. Hope is all I have now .

--------------------
IBS-C, bloating, cramps
pregnant

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Re: The bad about dairy - anyone explain? new
      #328626 - 04/21/08 06:48 PM
Claudie

Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 27
Loc: Australia

Just thought I'd add what happens to me - I can eat a very small amount of dairy once a day - I can have a small amount of grated cheese, or 1 tbspn cream etc providing that is all the dairy I have that day but I can never, ever have it cold. Icecream (even soy icecream) or cold soy choc milk always brings on a severe attack. When I was under the care of a nutritionist this really threw a spanner in the works as it didn't fit the diet parameters I was on. It was only ages later that I worked out it was the cold. Not sure why and it doesn't matter if I have had IS or a IBS safe meal first.

--------------------
IBS D

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Re: The bad about dairy - anyone explain? new
      #328674 - 04/22/08 01:35 PM
Wendy1234

Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 98


Jhuggs, I have the same thing! I can eat pizza (no pepperoni though) and have no problem. But I eat ice cream and I'm in pain for days. How odd!

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Re: The bad about dairy - anyone explain? new
      #328675 - 04/22/08 02:03 PM
C&P

Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 17


Quote:

I was wondering if anyone out there tried goat's milk, and if you were able to tolerate it? Is it the same as cow's milk, or is it more user-friendly? I'm thinking of trying some, but it probably is much more costly.



Goat's milk and IBS do not mix (too much whey).
The animal as food isn't very human friendly either (high in fatty acids known as trans fats).
Many animals in the same or similar family are also that way (cows included).

A good rule of thumb, is not to trust an animal with more than 2 stomachs, including lamas, camels, lamb, goats, and cows (beef has the minimum amount of natural trans fats).

A McDonald's burger is 1 gram of trans fats per patty, which is too much considering they aren't even Angus.

Soy burgers or Tempe may be a better alternative, but as for milk, I would suggest coca nut milk, but take it very sparingly (make sure to burn it off afterwards).

Edited by C&P (04/22/08 02:21 PM)

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How lucky....mmmmm, pizza!-nt new
      #328692 - 04/23/08 04:17 AM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095




--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat

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Re: The bad about dairy - anyone explain? new
      #328710 - 04/23/08 07:12 AM

Unregistered




There seems to be no rhyme or reason

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