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probiotics success - any long term information?
      #327059 - 03/23/08 05:53 AM
Claudie

Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 27
Loc: Australia

Recently I've been doing lots of research on probiotics and for the last 3 weeks have been taking one called IBS support http://www.ethicalnutrients.com.au/featured%20product-ibs.htm (Aust) which has 15 billion lactobacillus plantarum organisms in it. During this time I have had no D at all and no urgency (and I have been eating some things that I know usually bother me). I have still had 3 - 4 BM's/day - more than I would like but manageable. Another organism which is supposed to be helpful is called Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 (which is in Align, available in the US) and in a product I can get here called OMX Probiotic Formula http://www.omx.co.nz I might try this next. I wondered if anyone has had any long term success with any probiotic?
I'm asking because I have always suspected there was a connection with bacteria. I first got very bad D which wouldn't go away after taking a probiotic with lactobifidus and acidophilus in it. After a while I was diagnosed with IBS 8 years ago and my gastroenterologist put me on 3 courses of very strong antibiotics and for 14 weeks after I was completely normal - I was so thrilled and thought I was cured. Then the IBS D came back. He put me on the courses again and this time I was symptom free for 8 weeks but it all came back again. I've tried it again since but this regime now has no effect and I have had multiple other treatments over the years with limited success. I am interested to know if taking probiotics longterm works and what the best strains are? It's early days but I am starting to get excited again.

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IBS D

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Re: probiotics success - any long term information? new
      #327063 - 03/23/08 08:22 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

Reports of a short term decrease in IBS symptoms after antibiotic treatment are prevalent in the IBS research literature. The reasons for this are unknown. Reports on long term studies of probiotics have yet to be published may be because it is too early in the research cycle for long term studies to have been conducted.

Your experience with lactobacillus plantarum appears to coincide with the reports given in the reference #6 on the web site you provide a link to. This study was a small study done in Poland involving 20 IBS suffers and 20 normal individuals. 10 IBS suffers reported a partial improvement in their symptoms - primarily pain. 6 of 10 IBS-C suffers reported an improvement in stool frequency.

The largest study to date was done with Bifidobacterium infantis 35624. The effective dose for this probiotic was 100 million CFU ( colony forming units ) and it provided relief from a range of IBS symptoms. No efficacy was shown at a lower dose of 1 million CFU.

Looking at the OM-X web site the amounts of the various organism in the complicated mixture it contains are not given. You might contact the vendor and ask how much Bifidobacterium infantis it contains. It could be quite low. Also, you might wish to consider how much IF this probiotic preparation has because it contains a variety other organic ingredients.

It looks like you can get Natren products in Australia. The have a product called Life Start 2 that only contains Bifidobacterium infantis. You can get in capsules or powder form (2 billion cfu per 1/2 tsp). It appears to be available through Life Span in these locations.

Probiotics appear to be have promising potential as a management aid for IBS. A recent review of the probiotic literature (see reference below) found that only some species of Lactobacilli and Bifidobacterium have been reported some efficacy for IBS with Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 being reported the most effective. A recent study (see second reference below) demonstrated superiority for bifidobacterium infantis 35624 over both a lactobacillus and placebo for abdominal pain/discomfort, distension/bloating and difficult defecation as well as for a composite score. However, it may be some time before they know exactly which probiotics are effective and in what doses.

Tell us how it goes with your probiotic experiment. Good luck

Reference
Zuccotti, G. V., F. Meneghin, C. Raimondo, D. Dilillo, C. Agostoni, E. Riva, and M. Giovannini, 2008: Probiotics in clinical practice: An overview. Journal of International Medical Research, 36, 1A-53A

Quigley, E. M. M., 2007: Probiotics in Irritable Bowel Syndrome: An Immunomodulatory Strategy? J Am Coll Nutr, 26, 684S-690.

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Re: probiotics success - any long term information? new
      #327064 - 03/23/08 10:16 AM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095


Can this probiotic be ordered from the US? I've been looking for a probiotic with a strong strain of plantarum, as I have read that it is good for the pain/bloat symptoms of IBS.

I didn't see a place on the website to order...or did I just miss it?

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Re: probiotics success - any long term information? new
      #327094 - 03/23/08 08:54 PM
Claudie

Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 27
Loc: Australia

Thanks for your detailed reply Syl. You sound a bit similar to me only I can tolerate fructose - have you tried any probiotics yourself? I've emailed Lifespan the Aust distributor for Natren products as they don't list Lifestart 2 to see if I can get it here. I'm a bit uneasy about it as I can only tolerate a very small amount of lactose and it contains whole goat milk powder. Today I have had a not so good day - I took my food experimenting too far, had 3 tablespoons of cream and am paying for it, so I will still have to be very careful with lactose and fat. The OMX Probiotic Formula is suitable for lactose intolerant people but I agree, it contains a lot of other stuff. I'll see if I can find out how much Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 it contains.
Jordy, I don't know if you can get IBS support in the states. Ethical nutrients who make it are an Australian company. Their product has to be kept cold but I have contacted them and the lactobacillus plantarum organisms stay viable for quite a while out of the fridge, here is an excerpt from their reply:
"Temperature (degrees C) Time guaranteed to be above label potency
40 48 hrs
30 14 days
25 4 months
4 2 years
The results show the product to be very tolerant to prolonged periods
of storage and to variations in transport conditions without harming the bacteria".
I would think that there must be a similar product in the US. If not, Chemistdirect.com are an Australian online pharmacy I use. They seem to be the cheapest (they have IBS support 90 caps for $49.95 Aust and it is $69.95 at my local chemist). They post overseas and say international orders are sent via Airmail with DHL Global Mail. Please allow 2-3 weeks for international Airmail delivery. Here is the link to the product on their site: http://chemistdirect.resultspage.com.au/search?w=IBS+support&view=list&search_in_description=1
I'll keep you posted on my experiment. The last 2 days I have gone up to 2 capsules to see if it affects the amount of BM's.

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IBS D

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Re: probiotics success - any long term information? new
      #327102 - 03/24/08 06:13 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

You only need to take 1/8 teaspoon of the Life Start 2 powder to get 250 million CFUs. The amount of goat's milk in 1/8 teaspoon will be very small. Good luck

--------------------
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VSL#3 new
      #327125 - 03/24/08 04:48 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota

is the only probiotic proven in tests to help IBS. Don't know if you can order it though where you are.

--------------------
IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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And Align (Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 ) new
      #327130 - 03/24/08 06:29 PM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

See this message and this research library entry.

In fact the research shows better overall results with Align than VSL#3 for IBS.


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Re: And Align (Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 ) new
      #327190 - 03/25/08 08:24 PM
Claudie

Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 27
Loc: Australia

VSL 3 is $120 for 30 sachets here and from Syl's research it looks as if it is better for IBS C - I'm going to see if I can get Align first but I don't know if it is available here or how much it costs. OMX sent an imprecise reply "We are uncertain as to the exact amount of Bifidobacterium infantis in OMX but believe it is about 2%". At the moment I will have to put my probiotics experiment on hold. I have had the flu over easter which has turned into sinusitis and am reluctantly on antibiotics. Then in 2 weeks I have to have 4 wisdom teeth out so will have to go on different antiobiotics for that. After all that, I'll really need some good bacteria.

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IBS D

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Re: And Align (Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 ) new
      #327200 - 03/26/08 07:45 AM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095


How did you get the impression that VSL is better for C? I always thought it benefited the D folks more. I feel the same about Align. Is anyone with C being helped by either of these?

Claudie, why are you thinking of switching probiotics if IBS support is helping you so much?

Oooh, good luck with all the teeth work. I think being on a probiotic would help you deal with the antibiotics. You can take both at the same time, I'm pretty positive.

I don't know which probiotic is best now. Does it sound like the company that makes IBS Support is now saying they don't think it would be good to ship this? I just don't want to waste money....I just want to feel better.

--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat

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But new
      #327202 - 03/26/08 07:49 AM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095


So many people have reported being helped by other brands.

Are you saying that these two probiotics are the only ones worth trying? That others maybe just give a placebo effect? Like the Udo's choice that one poster find so helpful?

--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat

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Re: But new
      #327207 - 03/26/08 08:54 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

I know of only three probiotics that have been proven through clinical trials to be effective for IBS: VSL#3, lactobacillus plantarum and Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 (Align). A recent review of probiotics in clinical practice (see first reference below) indicates that only certain species of lactobacillus and bifidobacterium have any efficacy for IBS.

VSL#3 and lactobacillus plantarum were small trials showing limited efficacy compared to placebo. There have been three Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 trial that were much larger and the efficacy was high for all IBS symptoms in IBS-C and IBS-D. The mechanism by which the later probiotic works in IBD to reduce localized bowel inflammation is better understood (see second reference below) and hypothesized to be similar in IBS. VSL#3 contains a variety of organisms including lactobacillus plantarum and Bifidobacterium infantis (perhaps different strain than 35624) and this may be part of the reason for its partial efficacy in IBS.

It is not the number of organisms in a probiotic that determines it's effectiveness. It is the type, species and amount of individual organisms that determine the efficacy. While there may be other probiotics that are effective for IBS they have not been clinically proven. I won't rely on self-reports from one or even few individuals to judge the efficacy of any probiotic on IBS.

I hope this helps

Reference
Zuccotti, G. V., et. al., 2008: Probiotics in clinical practice: An overview. Journal of International Medical Research, 36, 1A-53A.

Shiba, T., et. al., 2003: The Suppressive Effect of Bifidobacteria on Bacteroides vulgatus, a Putative Pathogenic Microbe in Inflammatory Bowel Disease. Microbiology and Immunology, 47, 371-378

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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

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Re: But new
      #327209 - 03/26/08 09:49 AM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095


So, in your opinion, Align has more proven results for all types of IBS than the other two probiotics even though it doesn't contain the plantarum? I was really stuck on getting that one for the bloat.

Thanks for your patience, Syl. Let me know if you ever decide to try the align or the Benefiber with wheat dextrin, okay?

--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat

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Re: But new
      #327223 - 03/26/08 10:22 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

I don't recommend Align - I only report the findings in the research literature. Bifidobacterium infantis has been reported to reduce all symptoms including bloating.

I am actually going to try the Natren Life Start which contains Bifidobacterium infantis but the strain is NLS not 35624. This strain of Bifidobacterium infantis has not undergone clinical investigation yet but I understand there is one in progress. I would have preferred to try the Life Start 2 but this product is not available in Canada yet.

Some people might have concerns about the Life Start products because the probiotic Bifidobacterium infantis is grown on either cow (Life Start) or goat's (Life Start 2) milk and therefore contains a small amount of dairy. I have no concerns because a 1/2 teaspoon contains 1 billion CFUs and it likely contains very little dairy.


--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

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Re: But new
      #327228 - 03/26/08 10:35 AM

Unregistered




Syl, just to clarify - this stuff is for infants? But because of that certain strain it contains, the bifidobacterium infantis, it may be beneficial to us?? Thanks

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Re: But new
      #327236 - 03/26/08 11:40 AM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095


Just curious, why did you choose the life start over the align since it doesn't have the research behind it. I know you must have a reason....you are too researched minded not too!

Thanks for letting me know that Align is suppose to help bloating. I'm sorry, I really thought you had recommended that product and that you were onna try it. Sorry about the confusion

--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat

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Re: But new
      #327245 - 03/26/08 01:12 PM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

Bifidobacterium infantis is a bacteria that an infant acquires from its mother when it passes through the birth canal. However, when an infant is born by Cesarean section or was given antibiotics there is a chance that there is not enough of this bacteria to colonize the colon properly. The Life Start probiotic is used for children for this reason.

The original research on bifidobacterium infantis and IBD was done in Japan and published in 2003. They used the strain 1222 in that research. It is quite likely that different strains of bifidobacterium infantis are effective for treating IBS. However, the amount required to have a theraputic effect may be different that the amount used in the clinical trials done on the strain 35624. The cost of Align is high - about $1.10 per dose - probably a result of the clinical trials. And it is not available in Canada. The cost of Life Start is much lower. A 4.5 oz jar cost about $38. A 1/4 teaspoon contains 1 billion CFUs. There are about 260 doses in a jar for a cost of about $0.15 per dose. It is a cheap experiment to try:)


--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

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Re: But new
      #327251 - 03/26/08 01:43 PM
Erilyn

Reged: 11/14/07
Posts: 743
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Canada

Syl, can you buy this Life Start in Canada?

Sounds like I had a double whammy - I was born through a C-section, AND had surgery at 20 months so certainly had tons of antibiotics at a very young age.

--------------------
IBS-A since age 12, and fructose sensitive; with the exception of my pregnancy, have been following Heather's diet since Nov. 19, 2007.
Taking 12g of Acacia per day. Relatively stable since March 2008!



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Re: But new
      #327257 - 03/26/08 02:28 PM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

Yes. It is available in Canada. Life Start 2 is grown on goat's milk but it is not available yet. Some regulatory issues regarding labelling to deal with.

I called the head office. They referred me to the Canadian rep in Calgary (natrencanada@shaw.ca). He gave me the name of a local HFS that carries it. I hope to get some later this week. It is also available on-line from CureSelf.

Life Start has to be kept cool so it is shipped in a cold pack from on-line vendors which adds a bit to the cost. However, I expect any Canadian HFS can order it from Natren Canada

--------------------
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trials new
      #327286 - 03/26/08 05:31 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota

Like Syl says it is the number of bacteria and the diversity of strains that determines efficacy. I personally don't feel ones that aren't tested aren't good. I feel the couple that have been tested may have been chosen because of many different reasons including money changing hands. If GI doctors always recommend VSL#3 it could be that company paid for it to be tested. I'm sure it is good but other brands may have been unable to get in trials, if you follow me.

--------------------
IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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Re: trials new
      #327292 - 03/26/08 07:15 PM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

I don't think anyone has shown that diversity plays a role in the efficacy of a probiotic. In fact if you read the abstract of the last paper in this message you will see they warn that "Combining potentially anti-inflammatory and proinflammatory bacteria in the same preparation would be particularly counterproductive and presents the alarming situation where an ill-chosen probiotic species might exacerbate disease." I suspect specific strains of individual species may be more important.

Generally speaking it always the company's responsibility to pay for clinical investigation.

--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

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Re: And Align (Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 ) new
      #327296 - 03/26/08 08:25 PM
Claudie

Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 27
Loc: Australia

Jordy,
I can't find where I saw that VSL 3 was better for IBS C. I may have got it wrong. I thought I read somewhere that it was good for gas and bloating but not for D?? On their web site they put gas and bloating reduction first, then a reduction in urgency (but not in D itself). It seems incredibly expensive and I am only going to try it after the rest.
If you can't get a similar product to IBS support in the States, I would go ahead and order it. It shouldn't be affected by shipping (unless customs hold it up for ages) but I can't necessarily recommend it to you as we are all different and it may not work although I would still give it a try. I used it for 3 weeks and was great but then had a bad day out of the blue which was disappointing; however, it might have just been a symptom of the flu. I also want to be normal and 3 or 4 bm's/day is not normal enough for me. I am now on antibiotics which can cause D so I have upped my Digestive support to 2 tablets a day while I am on them. I will stay on it after all the antibiotics are over to give it a chance again. I have also ordered Align and am trying to get hold of Lifestart. I want to try them all separately and then maybe in combination. For me, I really feel bacteria have played a strong role in my IBS so anything that can affect the balance is worth trying, (but I could be wrong).

--------------------
IBS D

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Abstract of orginal results new
      #327299 - 03/27/08 05:59 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

Some times you have to be careful with the claims made by vendors on their web site about products compared to what was actually shown in the clinical investigations.

Here are links to the abstract of the two small trials done on VSL#3 from two published research papers

Kim, H. J., et. al, 2005: A randomized controlled trial of a probiotic combination VSL#3 and placebo in IBS with bloating . Neurogastroenterology & Motility, 17, 687-696.

Kim, H. J., et. al, 2003: A randomized controlled trial of probiotic, VSL#3, on gut transit and symptoms in diarrhea-predominant irritabke bowel syndrome. . Aliment Pharmacology & Theraputics, 17, 895-904.

Just for comparison here are links to the abstracts of larger clinical trial on Bifidbacterium infantis 35624

Whorwell, P. J., et. al, 2006: Efficacy of an Encapsulated Probiotic Bifidbacterium infantis 35624 in Women with Irritable Bowel Syndrome . The American Journal of Gastroenterology, 101, 1581-1590.

O'Mahony, L., et. al., 2005: Lactobacillus and bifidobacterium in irritable bowel syndrome: Symptoms responses and relationship to cytokine profiles. . Gastroenterology, 128, 541-551.

And finally here is the abstract of a paper that compared the effect of Bifidobacterium and Lactobacillus in IBS

Furrie, E., 2005: IS Bifidobacterium a more effective probiotic therapy than Lactobacillus for patients with irritable bowel syndrome? Nature Clinical Practice Gastroenterology & Hepatology, 2, 304-305.

The full research papers are quite technical but they make fascinating reading


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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

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Re: trials new
      #327341 - 03/27/08 05:46 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota

I didn't describe it very well. I meant that taking just one strain like the 'bifidus regularis' in activia wasn't as good as the probiotics with a few strains.
I have a massive headache.

--------------------
IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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Re: trials new
      #327366 - 03/28/08 05:22 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

That is what I understood and that is what I tried to explain is incorrect. It is better to take probiotics with one strain that is known to work than it is to take a probiotic with many strains have not been proven to work


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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

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Re: trials new
      #327367 - 03/28/08 05:50 AM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095


Aren't you two saying opposite things? I'm confused. It's better to take a probiotic with one proven strain or one that has multiple strains, but maybe doesn't have "company paid for trials" to establish it's benefits?

I always thought multi-strain was much better because it covered more symptom related problems.

--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat

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Re: trials new
      #327369 - 03/28/08 06:22 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

It is better to take a probiotic with one proven strain than it is to take a probiotic with 10 unproven strains.

Taking a probiotic with unproven strains may worsen IBS symptoms. Some bacteria found in the colon can grow out of control and causing problems. For example, some bacteria can be pro-inflammatory (causes inflammation of the bowel) whereas others like Bifidobacterium infantis is an anti-inflammatory probiotic (reduces inflammation of the bowel).

Quoting this research report "Combining potentially anti-inflammatory and proinflammatory bacteria in the same preparation would be particularly counterproductive and presents the alarming situation where an ill-chosen probiotic species might exacerbate disease."

If the strains you are taking have not been proven to be effective how do you know that they are not causing more problems than they are resolving?

--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
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The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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Re: trials new
      #327372 - 03/28/08 07:11 AM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095


My probiotics contain all the usual strains included in most of the popular probiotics sold in HFS. I see them listed over and over. That's why I assume they are good and effective....never even occured to me that they could do any harm. Worse case, they do nothing.

Are you sure Little Minnie is saying the same thing as you? I trust you gals!

--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat

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Re: trials new
      #327375 - 03/28/08 07:24 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

They maybe good. And they maybe effective. But not for IBS

Probiotics are used for a variety of things such as travellers diarrhea, Crohn's, ulcerative colitis and allergies. Any many bacteria found in probiotics are used to produce cheese, yogurt, sourdough, etc and are known to be harmless.

If you wish to improve your IBS symptoms then use a probiotic that is known to help IBS. If you want to take them for any other reasons fine - but don't expect them to help with IBS.

No - Little Minnie is not saying the same thing I am


--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
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The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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Align contains casein -nt new
      #327418 - 03/28/08 05:33 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota



--------------------
IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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And ... new
      #327421 - 03/28/08 06:02 PM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

Indeed it does. Each capsule contains a few hundred milligrams or about 1/4 teaspoon of probiotic plus other ingredients. Casein will account for less than 10% of the weight and therefore each capsule likely contains less than a 1/40 of a teaspoon of casein.

It is interesting how the research reports excellent results in IBS suffers using a probiotic containing a dairy ingredients. It seems another thing this research suggests is that minuscle amounts of diary in a probiotic supplement are probably fine for most IBSers.

By the way - in the VSL#3 trials the probiotic was mixed with 6 oz of yogurt before it was given to IBS patients. And the gastric and small bowel transit time was measured by having the subjects ingest two labelled scrambled eggs, a slice of whole-wheat bread and one glass of whole milk. And even with this dairy load some IBS patients reported an improvement in bloating


--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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different name for Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 new
      #327422 - 03/28/08 06:32 PM
Claudie

Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 27
Loc: Australia

Syl,
Its incredibly useful to have someone here with your expertise. You are answering questions I have had for ages. I hope you don't mind me asking a couple more?
I have had a reply from Ethical nutrients' parent company Metagenics to my question 'why they don't have a product with Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 in?' This excerpt from their reply says they do:
"we call it Bifidobacterium lactis (BI-07) For instance, it is in our Ultra Flora Restore product. It has undoubtedly been used for IBS support, however due to our research here at Metagenics and through outside research reviews, it has been determined that the strain that we use in our IBS Support Product (Lactobacillus plantarum) is more specific for IBS".
They then quote the research you mentioned: European Journal of Gastroenterology & Hepatology. 13(10):1143-1147, October 2001.
Niedzielin, Krzysztof a; Kordecki, Hubert a; Birkenfeld, Boz ena b
Do you know if this is the same bifidobacterium? What do you think of the mix in Ultra Flora Restore? I can't find any quantities listed. https://www.metagenics.com.au/shop/index.cfm?fuseaction=item&id=331 I notice it has Lactobacillus acidophilus (NCFM strain) in it and I have no idea if it is useful. They recommend this product for 'detoxing'.
I'm going to send them the link to the large study you mentioned on the efficacy of Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 and see what they say.

--------------------
IBS D

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It is different new
      #327431 - 03/29/08 05:45 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

Bifidobacterium is a genus of gram-negative bacteria that has many species. The list on the bottom right-hand side of the web page gives a list of species of bacteria in this genus. Bifidobacterium bacteria makes up the largest percentage of bacteria in the colon.

Bifidobacteria lactis is a different species of bifidobacterium than Bifidobacteria infantis. I have not seen any research using this species of bifidobacterium in IBS management.

I am not surprised that the company claims "outside research reviews, it has been determined that the strain that we use in our IBS Support Product (Lactobacillus plantarum) is more specific for IBS" because this is the product they are selling. In fact the study they cited was done on a very small group and like VSL#3 the efficacy is limited for IBS. Having said that at least there is some evidence of some efficacy for IBS management

The Flora Restore product contains Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidobacterium lactis and colostrum (a from of milk). Neither bacteria has been shown to be useful in the management of IBS. Acidophilus has been shown to be effective in the treatment of some types of diarrhea.

Metagenics probably knows about Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 but even if they wanted to use it they would have difficulties because it is the proprietary property of Proctor and Gamble, the company that makes Align. They would have to use another strain of infantis or licence the use of 35624 from Proctor and Gamble.

As I mentioned in a previous posting why not try the Natren Bifidobacteria infantis NLS? The amount of dairy in a 1/4 - 1/2 teaspoon is minuscule.

Good luck


--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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Re: probiotics success - any long term information? new
      #327433 - 03/29/08 06:54 AM
Joannelcoq

Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 261
Loc: Long Island, NY

Florastor is for predominent IBS-D Its the same as Saccharomyces Boulardii. Its non colonizing.

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Claudie new
      #327489 - 03/30/08 01:11 PM
Jordy

Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095


You sounded like you were happy with IBS support. Why are you wanting to change probiotics?

--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat

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Re: Abstract of orginal results new
      #327558 - 03/31/08 01:37 PM

Unregistered




Syl, I'm still a little confused, sorry why the Life Start over the Align? Also, can you let us know how you do when you start it? This DA I'm taking is pretty worthless and I need to try something new.....

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Re: Abstract of original results new
      #327567 - 03/31/08 02:45 PM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

Life Start contains Bifidobacterium infantis NLS and Align contains Bifidobacterium infantis 35624. These are two different strains of the same bacteria. Only Align has undergone clinical testing to establish efficacy and dosage.

Align cost about $1.10 per doses and it does not have to be kept cool. A 1.25 oz bottle of Life Start used for infants costs about $20 and it must be kept cool. It contains about 70 doses (1/4 teaspoon = 1/2 gram = 1 billion CFUs). The cost per dose is about $0.28. It is also available in a 4.5 oz bottle for about $32 giving a cost per dose of about $0.13.

It will be a while before I try it. I have a number of important things I have to get out of the way before I am going to risk destablizing myself Eventually I will give it a try now that I know it is locally available.

--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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but it wouldn't last new
      #327578 - 03/31/08 05:42 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota

Diet changes like that can sometimes seem to improve symptoms but in the long run things will backfire. This info is from my GI doc who said sometimes diets like south beach and atkins can be temporarily seemingly helpful but this doesn't last. He hates the probiotic yogurts as much as I do too.
There is a diet book/food writer that did an article in Bon Appetit. She claimed her digestive issues went completely away on an all natural diet of whole milk, butter, bacon, lard etc. But it is foolish to believe in that kind of story. It is much more likely that dairy and fats are harmful for IBS. I know what they do to my system. Bloating can be a very, very, very mysterious thing.

--------------------
IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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Re: Abstract of original results new
      #327592 - 04/01/08 05:48 AM

Unregistered




Thanks so much Syl We are grateful to have you here on the boards!!!!

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Clinical trials are not a fad new
      #327597 - 04/01/08 07:26 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

If we were talking about fad diets I might agree with you and your GI doctor. However we are talking about clinical trials of probiotics like the one done on Align by Prof Peter Whorwell director of the South Manchester Functional Bowel Service in the UK. He is the GI doc who developed the gut-directed hypnotherapy for IBS in 1984. He was the first to claim insoluble fiber can be problematic for IBSers and his group examined the role of food intolerances in IBS. I believe some of his findings, particularly the role of IF and SF and hypnotherapy, have informed Heather about her approach to managing IBS. He is a GI doctor with credentials - I expect even your GI doc knows about his work.

It is important to keep IBS triggers in perspective. A minuscule amount of dairy in a probiotic is quite unlikely to cause problems for most IBS suffers. If the researchers in Manchester, who are fully aware of the problems of IBS and diary, were worried about the small amount of casein in Align they would not have used it in the clinical trials.

However, if you feel small amounts of dairy derived products are a problem for you then by all means avoid them

--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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try to be less annoying new
      #327642 - 04/01/08 04:07 PM
Little Minnie

Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 4987
Loc: Minnesota

I was referring to the fact that whole milk and yogurt were used for a test phase. Switching a diet can oftentimes work for a short time. I wasn't disputing the findings and I believe I made that clear. I will be firm on this because it is coming from a very experienced GI doctor. A switch in diet (i.e. food!) might lead to temporary good results but they don't last if you are eating a diet (food) not IBS safe. Whether I eat dairy in very small amounts is not your business or the point here. I am determined to uphold Heather's plan on this forum. We do not need to tell new people finding out that they should avoid dairy that it might be just fine for them. Do you see how confusing that would be? We need to be very careful to make sure that we don't give out advice on things we can handle but probably no one else will!!! For instance I am very good with IF but do you see me telling people that raw salad is probably just fine for them?, why not try it? NO! If you don't agree with Heather's information than don't give advice here. It does no good whatsoever and I am really getting upset.

--------------------
IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!

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My apologies - I thought we were having a discussion -nt- new
      #327644 - 04/01/08 04:48 PM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA



--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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Re: try to be less annoying new
      #327656 - 04/02/08 05:05 AM
Zara

Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 883


Ehm, I just read through the entire thread but I didn't see where Syl was specifically telling someone that eating yogurt and drinking whole milk might be just fine for them. She only stated that that's what they used in that particular product trial. That is a fact, not a recommendation.
I also agree that a minuscule amount of dairy in a supplement should be ok for most IBS sufferers. IBS is not like allergies when even a tiny amount can cause a deadly histamine reaction. After all, lots of people here have no problems eating soy or rice substitutes while these also often contain casein.
I'm really sorry to see such harsh words here. One of the reasons I like it here is because I feel like this is a nice community of people trying to help each other. We can't see that on many different boards. I really wish it stays that way .

--------------------
IBS-C, bloating, cramps
pregnant

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Thank you Syl new
      #327658 - 04/02/08 05:19 AM
Barbara50

Reged: 09/26/07
Posts: 299
Loc: Texas

When I look at this board I ALWAYS read your posts because I gain so much knowledge from you. Maybe it is because we are both IBS with fructose intolerance. Keep posting so I can keep learning.

--------------------
IBS-D, Gas & Bloating

Barbara50

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Re: Thank you Syl new
      #327659 - 04/02/08 06:09 AM

Unregistered




Syl, I agree with Barbara. You are very knowledgeable and I too make it a point to read your posts.

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Re: Thank you Syl new
      #327661 - 04/02/08 06:27 AM
lalala

Reged: 02/14/05
Posts: 2634


I, too, always read your posts and appreciate what you have to say and the information you provide. Thank you, Syl!

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Re: probiotics success - any long term information? new
      #328458 - 04/18/08 05:02 PM
CJIBSDG

Reged: 12/24/07
Posts: 153
Loc: Idaho

I take Udo's Choice Super Bifido plus and have had remarkable results (this is the first and only thing that I've had significant results from). You can order this online, shipped to you on ice from: http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=3705630389853301316&at=0

It may be too soon to consider it long term. As I took it for 1 month in Dec. or Jan. then switched to Align which immediately resulted in the same old problems so I got back on Udo's. I've been back on Udo's for almost 2 months again and have been doing absolutely FANTASTIC.

Because I tried it, went off, then back on, my opinion is that it truly is the working - The proof is in the pudding so to speak.

I wish you the best!

--------------------
Jeanette IBS-D, then switched to IBS-A, now stable with Udo's Choice Super Bifido Plus Probiotic

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Re: Thank you Syl new
      #328469 - 04/18/08 10:14 PM
Angel in Pain

Reged: 03/25/07
Posts: 70


Thank You Syl, for all your input, you always seem to know a lot of what's goind on with IBS and we appreciate all your input. If it were not people like you who research so much info and understand what your reading, People like me would not know were to start let alone understand most of the information that is put out there. You always have a way of explaining thing to were we can really understand them. Thanks again. Now what is you input about Udo's Choise Super Bifido Plus Probiotic. Also as you may know It's not me that has IBS it's my special daughter and I just have to go by what y'all are trying because I don't really know how she is feeling or what she is going through. I do know that she is doing better since I've have her on the IBS diet, but she still is hurting and bloated more days than I would like. I have to say Thank you All for your help. I can only go by what y'all are going through and the information you talk about to try and figure out what she is going through. But she is a lot better than what she was a year ago.
Thank again,
eva

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Re: Thank you Syl new
      #328764 - 04/23/08 08:11 PM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

I cannot find any information on the UDO Choise Super Bifido Plus Probiotic. Is that the right name? Here is a link to the UDO probiotics

--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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udo's website new
      #328768 - 04/23/08 09:40 PM
sun

Reged: 11/26/06
Posts: 152


http://www.udoerasmus.com/productmain.htm

i am interested in this one:
http://www.udoerasmus.com/products/probiotics_hi-bowel_en.htm

udo's stuff is top notch.

--------------------
ibs-c,gerd,small hiatal hernia ...thank you for the board and for helping me with my questions.<3

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Re: But new
      #328842 - 04/25/08 09:28 AM
Robbie0166

Reged: 04/25/08
Posts: 2


I am completely new to this board. My 12 year old son is the one with IBS. I have ordered the diet kit #2. can I use an adult dose with him? I'm hoping for a miracle. Some days are ok, but some are so awful that I just want to cry for him. He asks me all the time if there is such a thing as a stomach transplant. If there is any advice you can give me, I would greatly appreciate it.

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Re: But new
      #369403 - 04/06/13 11:10 PM
Destydan

Reged: 04/06/13
Posts: 1
Loc: Christchurch, New Zealand

"
Quote:

Bifidobacterium infantis is a bacteria that an infant acquires from its mother when it passes through the birth canal. However, when an infant is born by Cesarean section or was given antibiotics there is a chance that there is not enough of this bacteria to colonize the colon properly. The Life Start probiotic is used for children for this reason. "

BOOM! a bright light just got flashed on then.. explains alot... i was an induced birth to a dissasociated mother who had both toxemia and cancer of the uterus, who after 4 months of my birth (of which i believe a month was spent in an incubator as my lungs werent fully developed) my mother got a breast infection. So i would definately be short of this bacterium without a doubt. On top of all that my mother was hugely dissassociated putting me in childrens homes alot before finally leaving for good when i was 8, putting me into foster care and separating me from the rest of my family... both situations of which definately contribute to my IBS-C which i only really succumbed to in 2010 age 27, although there was definately signs looking back. ... theres a huge link with stress-be it emotional or physical, with IBS, & alot of linkages with serotonin deficiency in the gut (alot of our serotonin is in the gut-serotonin we all know is our happy chemical, & we process our emotions through our gut-hence "gut instinct". Its possible that serotonin could be part of a messaging service for signals between our brain and our gut muscles, ofwhich the main problem of IBS is the inflamed intestine but also the muscles clenched around it in a state of spasm..... that to me is all quite interesting.. all of it, esp the bit about not getting the right amount of the bacterium from our mothers during birth.

Also in my case 2 major earthquakes (Sep2010 & the Feb22/2011 disaster) destroying almost everything familiar-places & buildings- cafes i went to, places i hung at, venues i went to raves & gigs at, places i lived in even-most of my friends having left, the city still in a shambles really.. and 2 years of aftershocks-11,000! & finally settling down (from sep2010 to now, Feb22/2011 being the major disaster) definitely made it all alot worse too i would think...

In regards to things helping... ive found SLIPPERY ELM POWDER to be pretty good, although in times like now where 2 days of "just being normal" over easter last weekend has put me in a state. its hard to see the efficacy of it in a crisis but ive used it before and its great...

In terms of Diet i try to follow the FODMAP diet, but its hard to follow it religiously.. in terms of the money ive spent on this life sentence that is IBS, i probably could have done an OE by now easily.. its like just getting wads of cash and throwing it to homeless people, sometimes theyd get better use of it... just tryting to find things that work, food that works, combinations that work, doctors visits, specialist visits.. all of it... it just absolutely INSANE! and really does make one go a little crazy at times... Meanwhile my social life and employment ability has pretty much gone down the drain... .. but hey as the say where theres life theres hope right?

But do definitely try Slippery Elm Powder, here ya get it at Health/herbal stores and its really very cheap too which is a bonus ($12nzd for 80gms-about 30? doses) ... for those looking for products & supplements cross border then try online stores like http://www.puritan.com/ & http://www.iherb.com/ , both of whom ship internationally and have really good deals on everything, about half the price of stock in shops. Good luck

Anyway.. much love and best wishes to all fellow sufferers.. Peace

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Re: Thank you Syl new
      #369407 - 04/08/13 08:03 AM
mradams1

Reged: 07/12/10
Posts: 206


Hi Syl,

I noticed you mentioned Natren Life Start. You may know this already but they've launched Life Start 2. I believe it is more or less the same product but aimed at adults.

I'd be interested to hear your experience with this product when you've got under way.


--------------------
IBS A. Managing my symptoms with the EFI/FODMAP diet and probiotics.

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Re: Thank you Syl new
      #369408 - 04/08/13 08:11 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

I have tried Life Start and Life Start 2. They both had a marginal effect on my IBS symptoms. I quit taking them after a few months. I would love to try VSL#3 but it is quite pricey

--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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Re: Thank you Syl new
      #369413 - 04/10/13 01:45 AM
mradams1

Reged: 07/12/10
Posts: 206


Sorry, I've only just noticed the date of the original post. Have you tried Align? I've been taking VSL for about 6 months (you're right it's not cheap!) and have noticed a reduction in bloating and distention. It does nothing though if you don't adhere to your diet. I find that 2 sachets a day are required to make a difference. The recommendation is to take between 1-4 a day. (Although how anyone can afford to take 4 I'll never know!)

--------------------
IBS A. Managing my symptoms with the EFI/FODMAP diet and probiotics.

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Re: Thank you Syl new
      #369414 - 04/10/13 04:29 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

No - I have not tried Align. However, I did notice they are selling it in Costco. I am thinking about giving it a try. I would like to try VSL#3 but you are right it is quite expensive. I have heard good things about it so maybe someday I will give it a try.

--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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Re: probiotics success - any long term information? new
      #369454 - 04/20/13 06:08 AM
Islandsguy123

Reged: 03/02/11
Posts: 40
Loc: Savannah,GA

I've had a lot of help from taking Phillips Colon Health since Aug 2012. I usually take one a day. I may increase my dosage to two a day because the bacteria count in one isn't a lot (compared to many other brands). It only has 1.5 billion cells. If I miss a day, I tend to notice gas and bloating over night.



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Re: Thank you Syl new
      #369467 - 04/22/13 02:22 AM
mradams1

Reged: 07/12/10
Posts: 206


Hi Syl,

I found the research articles you provided links to very interesting. I notice the studies were from 2005/06 Do you know if there has been more recent research published?

--------------------
IBS A. Managing my symptoms with the EFI/FODMAP diet and probiotics.

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Re: Thank you Syl new
      #369468 - 04/22/13 04:21 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

Which research articles are you talking about. If you mean the ones in my signature then yes there are number of articles that have been published since then. Before I give you any more information please tell me if it the articles in my signature that you are wondering about.

--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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Re: Thank you Syl new
      #369469 - 04/22/13 05:03 AM
mradams1

Reged: 07/12/10
Posts: 206


Sorry, I was still on the probiotics thread. It was those articles, the clinical trials, that I had in mind. However, now that you mention the FODMAP articles, I'd also be interested in seeing those.

--------------------
IBS A. Managing my symptoms with the EFI/FODMAP diet and probiotics.

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Re: Thank you Syl new
      #369521 - 05/14/13 03:57 AM
mradams1

Reged: 07/12/10
Posts: 206


Sorry, I was still on the probiotics thread. It was those articles, the clinical trials, that I had in mind. However, now that you mention the FODMAP articles, I'd also be interested in seeing those.



--------------------
IBS A. Managing my symptoms with the EFI/FODMAP diet and probiotics.

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Re: probiotics success - any long term information? new
      #369531 - 05/15/13 06:08 PM
Kimba728

Reged: 05/05/13
Posts: 11
Loc: Maine

I just ordered the Udo's probiotic and will let you know how it works for me... Thanks for the information. It had very good reviews, as well.

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Re: probiotics success - any long term information? new
      #369546 - 05/21/13 01:36 PM
Kimba728

Reged: 05/05/13
Posts: 11
Loc: Maine

Hi there, just started Udo's and wondering if you're also using some of Heather's products as well..I'm thinking to start slow w everything..Thanks, Kim

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