Who follows a gluten or wheat free diet.?
#318066 - 11/06/07 10:49 AM
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Jordy
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095
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I'm not sure if Jenny and Welshsarah still post, but I was wondering how your GF diet worked out...or didn't work out.
Who on this board follows a gluten free diet and why? Most importantly, what has it done for your symptoms.
Thanks all.
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IBS-C with pain and bloat
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Re: I do
#318075 - 11/06/07 12:52 PM
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K2
Reged: 01/29/06
Posts: 1191
Loc: Canada
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I've been following a gluten-free diet on top of Heather's EFI diet for about a month. This change completely got rid of bloating, gas, pain and cramps. Urgency has been greatly reduced as well. I have cut down on Imodium, only using it now when I have D and have to do a presentation or take a test or something that I can't easily get to a washroom. Mostly I have D due to stress or eating too much in one sitting.
I have had bloodwork done for celiac that came back negative. I had allergy testing that showed no allergy to wheat or other gluten-containing grains. However in the process of constantly trying to make myself feel better this was one option I decided to try. It has been the best change in my symptoms since I removed dairy from my diet.
I do not rely solely on rice for my SF base. I eat plenty of quinoa, buckwheat noodles, amaranth puffs, potato, sweet potato, squashes, beets, zucchini, carrots, etc...
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Kat
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Re: I do
#318079 - 11/06/07 01:22 PM
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Syl
Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA
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Do you think the benefit you are experiencing is coming from having removed gluten or having removed wheat from your diet?
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Re: Both
#318080 - 11/06/07 01:30 PM
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K2
Reged: 01/29/06
Posts: 1191
Loc: Canada
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For one week I removed wheat only and my symptoms got noticeably better. I still had oats, barley and spelt. However when I cut those out my symptoms pretty much went away.
I believe some people just don't tolerate grains as well as others. White rice seems fine with me and I've read that it is often the easiest to digest. Amaranth, buckwheat and quinoa are not really grains so they probably don't digest the same way. Gluten-containing grains seem to be the worst for me. I never would have guessed this a year ago when I was living on white bread and doing relatively ok with my IBS-D. However I was also drinking tons of teas, using peppermint caps, gas-stop, Imodium, ginger etc...
I have had traces of gluten in sauces or contaminated foods when I'm eating out. I haven't really noticed this making a difference in my symptoms.
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Kat
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Re: Both
#318115 - 11/06/07 07:13 PM
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line415
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 976
Loc: New Jersey
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K2, can you give us an example of a daily menu for you now that you are avoiding wheat and gluten? Thanks. 
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Originally IBS-D for a million years!
Then IBS-A, Now a transformed slightly C
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Here's an example of one day's snacks and meals.
Breakfast: quinoa flakes, blueberries, almonds
Snack: sweet potato
Lunch: avocado sushi (avocado, nori, rice), baked salmon
Snacks: carrots, applesauce, Spirulina
Dinner: Stir fry with shrimp, zucchini, mushrooms, garlic, ginger, tamari sauce, buckwheat noodles (100% buckwheat)
Snack: peanut butter amaranth bar (amaranth puffs, peanut butter, honey), strawberries
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Kat
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I follow a GF diet and my symtoms improved tremendously!
For breakfast, I have turkey sausage, GF waffles, bananas
Lunch, I have Jenny-O Turkey Burger, french fries, pickles, corn
For Dinner, I have chicken breast, potato chips, baked potato.
For snacks, I eat apple cinnamon rice cakes, corn chips, Veggies, and homemade chocolate rice cake.
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Originally IBS-D for a million years!
Then IBS-A, Now a transformed slightly C
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Re: Both
#318139 - 11/07/07 08:52 AM
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Syl
Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA
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Thank you for the insight. The reason I asked is that some grains like wheat contain inulins and/or fructooligosaccharides which are collectively called fructans. Unlike gluten which is a protein these are carbohydrates made up of chains of fructose molecules which are undigestible by mammals. Mammals don't have the enzymes need to break these molecules down so they pass through the GI tract to the bowel were they are fermented. Fructans are not only found in wheat but in vegetables like onion, garlic and artichokes. Also, recently fructans have been added to some commercially prepared foods too. It has been found that fructans particularly inulins can produce bloating and gas. Heather even warns about the problem with inulin based SFS.
Anyway - just another bit of information you might consider when experimenting with your diet.
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Hi Jordy, sorry haven't been on for a while as life's been a bit hectic! I'm still on a wheat-free diet as well as Heather's diet and it's working well. I very rarely get bloated and if i get constipated it doesn't last more than a few days. The only problems i experience are when i don't follow heather's diet. Also, i eat rye bread since i can't have normal bread and this is high in IF so that sits quite heavily in my stomach and i occasionally get cramps with it.
Ultimately the wheat free diet combined with when i strictly follow Heather's diet works a treat for me 
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Sarah
IBS-C
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Hmmm, just been reading all the posts on this and i'm wondering whether i should try avoiding gluten rather than wheat as it's only since i've been eating more rye bread has my constipation and cramping returned...
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Sarah
IBS-C
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Re: Both
#318142 - 11/07/07 09:16 AM
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K2
Reged: 01/29/06
Posts: 1191
Loc: Canada
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I'm not sure if for me it's fructans or not, since I do fine with garlic and onion. I hardly eat any commercially prepared food which has also helped.
BTW (completely off topic) After thanksgiving in Oct I made a broth with the turkey carcass and some meat. I know you make your own homemade broth with chicken. I just wanted to know how you do it exactly? Do you buy a whole chicken, or parts? One thing I noticed right away was the consistency was like jello when cooled, and when I had soup from this broth my stomach was so calm and soothed. I'm never buying commercially made broth again, it's just not the same.
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Kat
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Re: Both
#318147 - 11/07/07 09:53 AM
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Syl
Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA
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I make my chicken broth from whole chickens or pieces. It depends on how much I want to make. The jello like consistency of cooled broth comes from the collagen found in the bones and connective tissue. I understand that you can increase the amount of collagen by adding the feet to the broth too. Apparently they contain a lot of connective tissue. Like you I will never buy commercial broth again.
If you want a quick test of your sensitivity to fructans try eating some Jerusalem artichokes and see how they affect you. They pass through me like grease lightining
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Ok this may sound dumb but I haven't been able to find chicken parts. I can find whole frozen chickens but didn't know if that would be good. I tried asking at a few grocery stores if they have chicken parts and they look at me like I'm an alien! They show me the chicken breasts, thighs and wings out on display. Can you make a good broth from those?
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Kat
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Frozen chickens work fine for broth. By chicken parts I meant I buy a package of breast, thighs or wings. I prefer the breast on the bone because the bone adds flavour and collagen. It is a bit more expensive but I prefer the breast meat in my soups
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Re: Thanks!
#318152 - 11/07/07 10:55 AM
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K2
Reged: 01/29/06
Posts: 1191
Loc: Canada
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I JUST had a chunk of chicken breast on bone, cut the chicken off to throw in a stir fry and threw out the rest. I can't believe I did that.. ugh
I'm gonna pick up the same thing and make a soup next time. And yeah I prefer chicken breast meat in the finished soup, so I could probably separate it from the bone when finished and leave it in.
If I used the chicken breast on bone, how much water do you think I should add? It was 2 large chicken breasts with a bone in the middle.
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Kat
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I agree with Sy the breast is the best part!! The last two soups I made were from the chickens at my local farmers market. Boy, did I see a difference since all there chicken and turkey is Organic and free range.The only other broth I will use is the vegetable or chicken in a pinch FF from Health Valley.
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IBS-C gas, bloating and acid reflux
Babies is the plan for 2008!!Hope this IBS cooperates.
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Re: Thanks!
#318162 - 11/07/07 01:17 PM
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Syl
Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA
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My rule of thumb is to just cover the chicken on bone with water and simmer in a covered pot. If the flavour is too strong you can dilute the stock to taste. Boiled chicken breast makes excellent sandwich meat too
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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broth
#318182 - 11/07/07 05:29 PM
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Kitchen Basics stock is very good. It is super safe too. Also Emeril's is pretty good. I am not a fan of his but use his stock if Kitchen Basics is not there. I also make my own stock but find the freezing and storing of it to be a pain.
Stock can be made with poultry bones and veggies and herbs; you don't need or want the meat. Roasting the bones if raw is a way to add extra flavor.
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IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!
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I tried gluten free for a trial period of two months (although I tested negative for celiac). I did feel a little better during that period, but still had my bad days. At the end of the two months I reintroduced gluten and started eating a lot of it so I could tell if it was an issue. There was no change. So it seems that gluten is not a culprit for me.
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Lisa
IBS-A, Interstitial Cystitis, Migraines
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Seems like more positive responses than not. But still differences. this is very confusing. Has anyone else tried a GF diet and have it not work?
Actually, I thought there would be more people who were following it than the 3 who most graciously responded (thanks again).
thanks for the responses, ladies. For those it has worked for.....how wonderful!!! I wonder why it doesn't work for everyone. Why can't there just be one answer!!!!!!!! 
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IBS-C with pain and bloat
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you still eat wheat even on your low fructose diet, don't you?? what about the fructans? 
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IBS-C with pain and bloat
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When you tried a GF diet what were you using as substitutes? Did you base your diet on rice, corn etc? I'm not entirely sure it's the gluten that's causing problems for me, but it may be grains in general. That may be something to consider.
Also, it may be that you do fine with grains, and something else is the cause for your symptoms. Don't give up trying to figure it out though.
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Kat
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Re: But Syl...
#318209 - 11/08/07 07:55 AM
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Syl
Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA
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In one of the recent papers on the dietary management of fructose malabsorption the authors recommend restricting fructans consumption to about 10-20 grams/day. A 65 gram slice of white bread contains about 2 grams. I try to keep my total fructan intake near the lower end of the range. I ~seem~ to be ok I eat some wheat and I don't worry about gluten.
In summary I restrict my fructan intake I don't try to eliminate them. Others may find that they are more sensitive to fructans than excess fructose and they have to restrict their wheat consumption more than I do. Unfortunately, like many things with IBS you have to figure out your own limits.
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Quote:
When you tried a GF diet what were you using as substitutes? Did you base your diet on rice, corn etc?
Yes. I substituted with rice and corn very much. Plus some quinoa and amaranth.
Do you also follow a low fructose diet, Kat? It really helps me to see your meals on the fitness board. Excellent samples for me to try too. Although, doesn't teriyaki sauce contain wheat or some sort of gluten?
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IBS-C with pain and bloat
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You may want to try GF but with using less corn. Rice has proven to be one of the most easily digested grains, but corn is probably not. Quinoa and amaranth have become staples in my diet. Before I went GF I still had days when my stomach wasn't stable at all, quinoa and amaranth didn't seem hard to digest at all.
The teriyaki sauce I make from scratch. I use Tamari sauce (soy sauce without any wheat), vinegar, honey, garlic, and ginger. So there isn't any wheat in it. I don't follow a low fructose diet (I eat applesauce almost daily).
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Kat
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Thanks Kat. The corn is in the form of polento and cornmeal in cereal, so it's ground up. Still may be causing problems?
Do you include potatoes of any form in your diet? What products do you use the quinoa and amaranth in? I know you have quinoa flakes, but do you eat the round grain? How about amaranth. Do you eat the cooked grain form? I eat the grain quinoa, but only have tried amaranth as a cereal form. Also, buckwheat noodles. Have you tried that in the kernal form?
Thanks for all the help. I'll send you my email address since you have so graciously offered to forward that info! 
Oh, about the rice. I think it is very constipating. I went gung ho with substituting rice products and that is when the C worsened. So, now I try to limit that too.
Do you ever feel like you are being cheated? Do you ever get angry that you have to follow the ibs and the GF and the DF diet? I do. I crave foods I'm not suppose to have. I just get so angry. How do you come to peace with knowing you will never be able to have some of your favorite foods ever again?
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IBS-C with pain and bloat
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I'm not sure if corn would be a problem for you, but if you tried GF and had lots of corn products, try next time not having lots of corn products.
I eat both white potatoes and sweet. I have quinoa flakes and quinoa grain. The grain I use as a substitute for rice sometimes with stir fry. I've only had buckwheat noodles, haven't tried the groats because I haven't found them yet. Amaranth I get in the form of pasta (amaranth flour + rice flour), flour which I've made tortillas with (they didn't turn out great but work ok), and puffed which I mix with unsweetened almond milk and berries, or peanut butter. I eat rice most days, but usually only about 1/2 cup or so per day. Don't cut rice out, but try to incorporate other foods so you aren't eating too much rice.
I've had IBS as long as I can remember. I can't remember a time when I didn't have stomach pain and difficulty digesting. Now I finally feel great, and so I would say I'm not angry I have to eat this way. I never knew I had it so bad my whole life and at the same time never knew what it was like to be normal. I don't feel restricted on my diet, I love vegetables, fruit, fish, nuts etc... I love the fact that now I don't have to worry about what I'm eating and when and how much fat there's in it. Although I follow Heather's diet in terms of avoiding the triggers, I'm not really following the fat content rules or SF first.
As for sweets and dairy, I used to live on that stuff. Now that I've changed my diet completely and pretty much have no added sugar, I'm enjoying the actual "true" taste of foods and it's wonderful. I love the taste of strawberries just on their own, whereas before I used to coat them in sugar. Sweet potato tastes great without adding butter to it.
I would say I've come to find new foods that I love. Kinda like getting over an old BF, I don't really care for the dairy or sweets anymore. I love my new foods and I'm committed to them!
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Kat
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Anybody else willing to share their GF experience? Positive or negative?
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IBS-C with pain and bloat
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***********************
If you're not dead, you've still got time.
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Quote:
Amaranth I get in the form of pasta (amaranth flour + rice flour), flour which I've made tortillas with (they didn't turn out great but work ok), and puffed which I mix with unsweetened almond milk and berries,
How do you make your tortillas and bars?
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IBS-C with pain and bloat
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IBS-C with pain and bloat
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Re: Recipes???
#319653 - 11/28/07 09:56 AM
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K2
Reged: 01/29/06
Posts: 1191
Loc: Canada
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Sorry I must have missed this post..
The tortillas I tried this recipe: Amaranth Tortillas
Basically you could try any flour for tortillas, just figuring out the amount of water needed would be different.
The bars I just eyeball, and they really haven't turned out that well in terms of being a 'bar' form. I put about 1/4 cup puffed cereal for 1 tbsp peanut butter and a small amount of honey. Mix it all and coat the puffs as much as possible. It's tasty but I can't seem to get it to stick together properly.
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Kat
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Thanks!
#319714 - 11/29/07 07:59 AM
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Jordy
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095
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I can't find amaranth puffs anywhere though! Been to 3 HFS.
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IBS-C with pain and bloat
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Glad it helps! Don't you find it difficult to follow? What are you eating daily?
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IBS-C with pain and bloat
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Re: Thanks!
#319731 - 11/29/07 10:07 AM
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K2
Reged: 01/29/06
Posts: 1191
Loc: Canada
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You can try puffing your own: take amaranth seeds, put about a tbsp in a hot pan and shake it. Kinda like making popcorn the old-fashioned way. I tried it once but had a lot of un-popped kernels.
Or you can try other puffs like quinoa puffs, millet puffs, I'm sure they'd taste just as good with the peanut butter and honey. They might also form more of a bar.
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Kat
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Quote:
I can't find amaranth puffs anywhere though! Been to 3 HFS.
I haven't found them either so I bought these Amaranth Flakes. They taste pretty good and they're not sweet (which is a good thing for me). However, they do contain other grains besides amaranth.
If you're just looking for breakfast "cereal" in general I also eat quinoa and buckwheat. I cook up a batch (in water only) and keep it in the fridge for a few days. I add some rice milk and fruit and either eat it cold or nuke it. Very yummy
I also bought plain amaranth but I have no idea how to prepare it and what to eat it with
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IBS-C, bloating, cramps
pregnant
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I wonder it you can also make the puffs in the microwave...Kat, have you tried it?
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IBS-C, bloating, cramps
pregnant
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Quote:
What are you eating daily?
I've gotten this question more times than I can count over the years with the IBS diet and now recently with a GF diet. I eat the same things everyone else eats. I just sub certain ingredients. Instead of wheat flour, I use rice flour. I've been using brown rice pasta. I went to local stores that carry gluten free products and pretty much tried one of everything until I found what I like. I found that the children's brands of GF cereals are actually a lot better than the ones targeted at adults. I eat a lot of fruits and veggies that I couldn't tolerate before because of the reaction I was having from gluten. I found a tapioca bread that is pretty good and a pecan raisin that is really good. I mostly buy mainstream brands of foods. I just check the ingredients and make sure it doesn't have anything I can't have in it.
As for changes, the gas, bloating, pressure and nausea are completely gone. There is much less sense of urgency now. I occasionally have soft stools but I think it's just because I am reintroducing so many foods I haven't had in the last 5 or so years. I've been feeling much better and I have even started losing some of the stubborn pounds that have been hanging around my backside for the last year.
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***********************
If you're not dead, you've still got time.
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I don't remember if I have asked you this before but have you had anything suggest you may be gluten sensitive? Like blood or stool antibodies or abnormal gastroscopic biopsy?
Just asking because I just had another blood test for gluten antibodies. My doctor said that they used to test for another antibody and that this test was only accurate in children and that they now test another type of antibody in adults. Anyway, the test came back negative. But when I mentioned to her today that I know of people who didn't have any blood antibodies but still responded really well to a GF diet she offered to refer me for a gastroscopy. This is the only test I haven't had so I think it's good. Plus I didn't even have to ask for it. But that's not all - she actually said she'd refer me to a private practitioner and she said she thought that we'd get it done and maybe even get the results before Xmas! Total shock. But in a good way of course. Now I hope something will show up so that I get a really good reason for trying a GF diet. It's easier to decide to give it a real shot if you really suspect it. And it would be so much easier to be gluten sensitive than having IBS. I still have problems from time to time and tend to do the BTC diet like once every one-two months parts of the year. And I am still on loperamide daily. I have had problems with blood sugar fluctuations and just now tried eating root veggies and bread with my main meals instead of bread and rice/potatoes and a smaller amount of veggies to see if that would help. But I can tell you this - my bowels were not very happy with that decision. So please wish me luck with the gastroscopy and gluten thing...
Glad to see you're both feeling so good on the GF diet.
Hugs,
Ulrika
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I'm trying to get my GI to do an additional test for Celiac. So far I've had 2 different blood tests at different times and they were normal. I do want the confirmation though. If it is Celiac then I have to be careful of cross-contamination and avoiding gluten hidden in things like sauces. So far I've avoided all wheat products, but have had some soy-sauce with wheat and probably other sauces with wheat when I eat at restaurants or friend's houses. So I will ask for the endoscopy where they take a biopsy.
Still waiting to see him, hoping he gets a cancellation so I can go in sooner (so far appointment is in January). Also I'm worried I'll have to go back on a high-gluten diet before the test which might make my symptoms bad again. Ugh! Can't wait for all this to be over with.
Best-case is I have the test done soon and it's negative. Then I'll go back on gluten-free diet and watch my symptoms without worrying about small amounts of gluten. I do agree it's easier to deal with a gluten sensitivity than not knowing is causing symptoms.
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Kat
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Quote:
And it would be so much easier to be gluten sensitive than having IBS.
I'm not saying you would have both, but I think most people on this sight who follow a GF diet also have IBS in addition to it.
Quote:
My doctor said that they used to test for another antibody and that this test was only accurate in children and that they now test another type of antibody in adults
What is this new test? I'm wondering which one I had done now. I know I'm not celiac because I do not carry the gene, but I did have positive antibodies....but a normal biopsy.
what is a gastroscopy? Hope you find some answers soon!
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IBS-C with pain and bloat
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They used to test for gliadin-antibodies before. But since then they have found that celiacs in chidlren and adults are probably two different conditions. The old test was not very accurate in adults and could give "false positive results" according to an information page I found. Now they instead test endomysie- or transglutaminas-antibodies for adults. This is considered to be highly accurate according to my GP. (Not sure these antibodies are called the exact same thing in English as in Swedish but it should be something similar.)
A gastroscopy is just the Swedish term for upper endoscopy.
About your other comment, I think that some cases of IBS could certainly be just gluten sensitivity. And after all IBS is just a collection of symptoms and doesn't say anything about the cause of the problem so if gluten would be the underlying problem for some people it may be that a GF diet would actually cure their IBS.
/Ulrika
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Quote:
They used to test for gliadin-antibodies before. But since then they have found that celiacs in chidlren and adults are probably two different conditions. The old test was not very accurate in adults and could give "false positive results" according to an information page I found. Now they instead test endomysie- or transglutaminas-antibodies for adults. This is considered to be highly accurate according to my GP.
Whoa. I never heard this before. My tests that were positive were the gliadan tests. The endomysie- or tansglutaminas test was negative (yep, same name here in US). Perhaps I have been eating GF for nothing. I am so confused. The GF diet really hasn't given me the success it seems to have given Kat, Sarah, and Melissa. I still have bloat and gas and pain....just not the D.
Where did you read this info? Please....I would love to read this! I was always told that the gliadin was over 90% accurate. Plus, I just had my blood tested again after being GF...and this time all the antibodies came back negative.
Thank you so much for telling me this. My doctors seem to have no answers. I wonder if anyone here in the states could enlighten me on this.
I wish I could be brave and just try gluten again....but I am terrified of it by now.
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IBS-C with pain and bloat
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But certainly your not having D is a good thing though?
The web page where I found the info was in Swedish unfortunately so I guess that won't help you. Sorry.
/Ulrika
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Yes, it's a good thing. But now I have chronic C instead. to the point of taking Miralax.
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IBS-C with pain and bloat
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Good reference
#319822 - 11/30/07 01:48 PM
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Syl
Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA
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Below is a link to an article about going why and how to "Go Glutten Free" written as a guideline for clinicians.
Reference
Dennis, M. and S. Case, 2004: Going Gluten-Free : A Primer for Clinicians. Practical Gastroenterology, 86.
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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I had allergy testing done. They sucked a bunch of blood out of me and away they went. I tested positive for a gluten sensitivity. I never thought to test for gluten because I was stable for so long eating wheat products. But after a few months of flare up this year I decided to have testing done for everything I eat and that was the only thing to come back positive.
It's been a little over a month now and I'm feeling better than ever. 
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If you're not dead, you've still got time.
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Originally IBS-D for a million years!
Then IBS-A, Now a transformed slightly C
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