milk
#300911 - 02/27/07 07:37 PM
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line415
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 976
Loc: New Jersey
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Please don't chop my head off. I totally know that dairy is not recommended, but I see through the search that some of you do drink milk on occassion after you are stable. I feel that I am stable and I am REALLY missing my cold cereal with milk. I just cannot get used to the taste of all the alternatives (yes, tried them all...soy, oat, rice, almond)...I like the chocolate versions but that's it. I have been completely avoiding dairy since October except for a few holiday cheats and maybe literally a bite or two of "real" pizza. I do seem to be able to tolerate "rice shreds" which are made with some casein. I just really miss having cold cereal with milk, as I eat oatmeal almost daily or change it up with a bagel or something.
For those of you who are stable and DO tolerate some milk, how much do you drink? How often and any adverse affects? I would LOVE to try just having a bowl of cold cereal with Lactaid about twice/week (yes...I know...still dairy!!!  ..I drank this for years even though I found out I'm not lactose intolerant).
I don't want to play with fire...I'm doing really well...was IBS-D and now no d...just some bloating and some c days and maybe a following day with multiple bms to "empty" myself. I adjust my diet and IF according to my bms (and stress). Anyhow, any input would be appreciated. If I have an adverse reaction after a week or so, it won't make me totally unstable, right? 
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Originally IBS-D for a million years!
Then IBS-A, Now a transformed slightly C
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Re: milk
#300913 - 02/27/07 07:41 PM
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Gracie
Reged: 11/25/05
Posts: 1967
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If you do decide to eat and drink milk products don't be surprised if your IBS gets progressively worse as time goes on. Sometimes you don't feel bad right away, sometimes you just progressively feel bad.
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Re: milk
#300919 - 02/28/07 04:08 AM
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Jeio
Reged: 09/28/06
Posts: 482
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Hmmm, well, I drink milk all the time. It does not bother me as long as it is fat free. If it has some fat, it bothers me... not sure why, but it seems like milk fat (butter) is more of a trigger than other kinds of fat... or maybe I just tend to use more than other kinds of fat? I am unsure...
Anyway, I am not lactose intollerant as per my doctor (who also has IBS) and she said if it's FF it should be fine.
Also, there seems to be no research confirming that cassein/whey are bothersome for IBSers (or others, excluding those with dairy alergies, I mean)
Thus, I think the whole dairy avoidance craze is a little overinflated. Yes, it needs to be FF. It would also help if it's lactose free just to make sure... But the rest? Everyone claims it with such certainty and that claim seems to only be based on anecdotal evidence... meaning the data is questionable. Forgive me, but I'm a mathematician, I deal with data all the time and I try to apply the same rigor to my IBS as I do to my studies, when time permits. I do not consider the claim that dairy (when FF and lactose free) should be avoided at all times a correct statement. I think that's just another one of the personal things...
That being said, it could be that you are bothered with dairy. I was scared to add it to my diet too... If it wasn't for my doctor, I would probably not have added it back... although I used to be addicted to it.
What I did: I started with some Bulgarian or Greek feta cheese (goat cheese) to see whether I can do well with that and I did OK. Then I switched to sheep, still OK. Sheeps cheese is high in fat, so I was making sure I don't eat as much as I would eat in the past. I knew that cows milk is worse than those two, but I didn't know where to buy cows milk feta cheese (not in the states, I mean) so, I just added it to some cold cereal, and I tend to just soak the cereal and then eat it and throw away the remaining milk (it's gross to me). Very little milk... gradually increased...
Now that I am stabilized, I eat my morning oatmeal with milk. I am usually OK (excluding yesterday, when I tried steel cut oats and they seem to have been the problem). Since I can tollerate it first thing in the morning, I consider it a safe food. I did not go back to the same amounts of milk products I used to eat before (and processed cheeses are a problem for me anyway), but I don't avoid it. The reason I didn't go back to the old amounts, though, is that I started eating more things that are more healthy and more yummy so I don't need to fill myself up with cheese any more, LOL.
It is very dangerous, though, if you do it too fast. You could not be sensitive to dairy, but since you haven't had it for so long, it could shock your system if you tried it like a whole glas at a time. I'd try a smaller amount. And then up it a little. Or try some goat milk products (goat milk is gentler) and sheep milk products (still gentler than cows) first.
Let me know if I missed something. I don't want to argue with people over this, because I know dairy avoidance is a religeous issue on this board, and I don't have time for lengthy discussions. I did it for quite a while too (avoiding dairy) so I know how scary it seems at first. Our bodies seem to be so much more complicated than we know so we are scared to not add something that could harm them even if the probability is low. However, if you consider the other alternatives, it seems you might be better off forgetting about dairy alternatives completely, unless you only drink almond milk (soy - controversial, probably harmful; rice milk - bad for C; oat milk - tastes gross at least to me)... We do not have enough data (and probably won't have in our lifetimes) so we either need to try things out, or stay safe and not try anything.
Last note: You are stable, right? If you are still not stable, though, don't do this, because you won't know if dairy bothers you...
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Re: milk
#300925 - 02/28/07 05:37 AM
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oldestofseven
Reged: 12/30/06
Posts: 156
Loc: tiny almost unheard of town in the middle of Va
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I am lactose intolorant as well as IBS-D, so on the rare occasions I have dairy, its always lactaid (milk or icecream) and its 2% ( i don't like the completely fat free). I do not have it very often, but when i do, I take digestive enzyme supplements with it, just in case, and I haven't noticed any problems. Even with the lactaid icecream. Also, I can tolerate a small slice of pizza if I take the enzymes and a lactaid pill, and eat it after a soluble fiber base (I'm too nervous to eat it without the SF base) Also, I was eating cereal with lactaid milk even when I wasn't stable and I didn't get worse, so I'm sure if you ARE stable, and its only a couple times a week, you should be fine.
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Adrianna, IBS-D, stable since May 2007, living life to the fullest because of it! 
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Re: milk
#300929 - 02/28/07 06:23 AM
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LtDanFan
Reged: 12/17/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Ohio
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I get very confused on this one, when I am stable I have fat free lactaid in my oatmeal and cereal and do not have any immediate problems. However, I did read the post before mine and saw that you may not have problems right away....so I am confused. I was told to do the lactose test, get stable then eat a big bowl of cottage cheese or drink some milk, I am NOT brave enough to try that, but I do drink the lactaid and I thought I was doing ok with it, but after being stable for weeks and then I have an attack, I am not sure what is causing it...I guess it could be the lactaid, however I do not have it everyday, I never just drink a glass of milk....Stupid IBS
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IBS-D, extreme pain and cramping - GERD - lactose/dairy intolerant, OCD, Fibromyalgia
DX: w/ Multiple Sclerosis 3/10
I can do all things through Christ who strenghtens me. Phil 4:13
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I used to be the same with FF milk. I found an organic milk in our store, that tastes better than the FF milk I was trying to get used to at first. The original one just looked as if they took normal milk and diluted it with water until the concentration of fat went below 0.5 percent daily value so they could list it as 0 on the nutrition facts label.
The organic one is better, although I am pretty sure the fact it's organic has nothing to do with it, it's just tastier milk.
It's called Horizon Organic Milk and comes in a red carton. If you can find it, give it a try FF is really safer, and it's better for your general health, LOL (butter's not a very healthy thing, you know, although it is very tasty)
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Re: milk
#300931 - 02/28/07 06:34 AM
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Jeio
Reged: 09/28/06
Posts: 482
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Well... it's hard...
I just had an "attack" yesterday, but it was the steel cut oats in the morning. That was a no brainer, since that was the only thing I changed in my diet. Stupid me thought since it was oats, it must still be safe.
I do not recommend the strategy with the cottage cheese, sounds like someone was making a joke... Maybe I didn't get it? Forgive me, I'm bad with humor 
It could be the lactaid that caused your attack, but if it didn't cause problems before, it's probably not it... If you can't find what caused it, the effect might be combined (a couple of things causing it). Did you change lots of things in your diet lately? Or maybe were anxious (I have attacks while sitting for exams ALWAYS, because of the anxiety)? Or maybe had some food that doesn't go with itself? For example, my mother always sais you should not have milk and fish at the same time (no we are not jewish and they do that with meat), because it's bad for your stomach. Not sure where she got that, but milk and fish taste gross together anyway.
You never know with this IBS thing... You can try leaving the Lactaid out for awhile until you stabilize and try it again... the best way to know is if it doesn't bother you in the morning. If it doesn't bother you then, then most probably it won't be a problem and something else is. If you try some other time, it could bother you, but because you already had a buffer of safe food in your stomach/bowels, you might not find out...
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Read this
#300932 - 02/28/07 06:37 AM
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Syl
Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA
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message
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Actually the cottage cheese thing was recommended by someone on this board and a GI doctor. It's supposed to be a illumination type thing to see if you have a problem or not. I was under the impression if the lactaid milk was supposed to be a trigger it would happen soon after you drink it. This is the ONLY milk related product I use and use it sparingly. I have never had an attack soon after or even hours after using it. Now, last night when I had my attack, I had some soy cheese and I do think that is a trigger, but I have had it before, without a problem....see this is where it gets so confusing. I also read in the past in a book about irriable bowel and lactose intolerance that FF real milk has more lactose in it then 1 or 2%.....
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IBS-D, extreme pain and cramping - GERD - lactose/dairy intolerant, OCD, Fibromyalgia
DX: w/ Multiple Sclerosis 3/10
I can do all things through Christ who strenghtens me. Phil 4:13
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Thanks, I'll start using that. We used to drink that all the time, we use mostly organic if we can help it. Organic eggs, organic fruits and veggies when we can find them. So the milk will definitely be added back on the grocery list. One question though, is it lactose-free? Because I am lactose intollerent. I guess it doesn't really matter though, I can take lactaid pills. Thanks again
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Adrianna, IBS-D, stable since May 2007, living life to the fullest because of it!
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Thank you everyone for so many responses. I guess I will weigh what everyone said and then tread cautiously. I'd hate to ruin a good thing (yes, I'm stable). Interesting scientific points and facts about the ingredients and fat free. I didn't realize that 1% and fat free are really that different but now I know. Thank you.
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Originally IBS-D for a million years!
Then IBS-A, Now a transformed slightly C
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Quote:
Hmmm, well, I drink milk all the time. It does not bother me as long as it is fat free. If it has some fat, it bothers me... not sure why, but it seems like milk fat (butter) is more of a trigger than other kinds of fat... or maybe I just tend to use more than other kinds of fat? I am unsure...
I'm also very confused about the milk thing. I have porridge made with milk and hot chocolate almost every day and since starting the EFI diet I have avoided cow's milk in favour of soy or rice milk because the impression I got from this board is that most of you avoid dairy like the plague! I am mainly using rice milk now as I had a funny episode with soy milk not so long ago...but I have heard a few times on the board that this can have a constipating effect...although I am still unsure as to why this is. I am IBS-C (major!!)
Jeio, are you IBS-C? And would I be right in thinking that cow's milk mainly affects IBS-D ers? Surely if cow's milk has a D effect then it might actually help my problem as long as it's FF and I don't overdo it??
I feel so confused...and I'm worrying that by avoiding cow's milk in favour of rice milk, maybe I'm just making my C even worse?!
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Rice milk does not cause C; I drink it several times a day, and I feel way better than when I used to drink soy milk, which just gave me gas.
The slightest hint of milk or milk proteins in anything I eat gives me MAJOR problems. It is my biggest trigger food, followed closely by fat. I'm not 100% stable, but close. I do NOT have a milk allergy or lactose intolerance; just IBS. I used to eat rice cheese (thinking it was safe) and couldn't figure out why it made me so gassy and bloated; it's the casein. I always thought lactaid pills helped me, too, before the EFI diet, but now I think that my system was just so out of whack because of all the bad-for-IBS things I was eating that it was impossible to tell what food caused what reaction.
Read what Heather has to say about milk consumption in her EFI book; it really doesn't help your body at all. You'd be doing yourself a favor by cutting it out of your diet completely.
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Lisa, IBS-C (Vegan)
Stable since July 2007!
Mommy to Rhiannon Marie (Dec. 13, 2008)
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I know, from trail and error, that I personally do not tolerate whole milk (cow milk) I was also having issues with Lactaid Milk...so I moved on to Soy Milk which, at this point, I am not sure if it's ok or not. I have to give it a few more tries. Sometimes I feel ok after having it, sometimes I don't. But perhaps it's not the milk and something else....you never know sometimes...it's a guessing game....Any suggestions as to what I should try????? Is Soy Light Milk any better....any brand of Soy Milk that is lighter and lower in fat perhaps....I don't know....I LOVE MILK AND CEREAL....and I miss having it....any thoughts would be great!!!
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I am trying to switch from Soy Milk (which I feel gives me some problems) to Rice Milk but I am afraid because I don't tolerate Brown Rice...isn't Rice Milk made from Brown rice...
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Quote:
Rice milk does not cause C; I drink it several times a day, and I feel way better than when I used to drink soy milk, which just gave me gas.
Read what Heather has to say about milk consumption in her EFI book; it really doesn't help your body at all. You'd be doing yourself a favor by cutting it out of your diet completely.
Not sure if this was meant for me but I am going to reply anyway, lol! I have read Heather's EFI book and I understand what she is saying which is why I have cut out all dairy from my diet (although the only dairy I really had was semi-skimmed cow's milk). I am confused as to where this idea about rice milk causing C came from....? If rice is SF, surely rice milk should be classed as SF too?? 
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I agree with everyone. This is very confusing. Like I said, I am not a milk drinker, as in drink a glass,etc. I do love my cereal though. I do "think" soy gives me rumblies and gas, and from what I understand rice milk is from brown rice and from what I have read on the board the outer part of the brown rice is IF and the inside SF.....so where that puts rice milk I have no idea. I do have a question if anyone knows about the soy milk that is refrigerated and the ones that just sit on shelf not refrigerated until you open them???? I "was" stable for 2-3 weeks before I tried dairy ease, and I used a small amount in my morning oatmeal or in cereal and have been doing this a couple times a week with no problems.....my huge attack last night (which by the way I still have NOT made it to 30 days stable), I have absolutely no idea what was the trigger yesterday except I had some soy cheese shreaded in some cooked rice and safe vegies cooked to almost mush and I added a little of the soy cheese for some "excitement"....I'm sorry I get sooo depressed about IBS, I know there are people that get stable and get used to eating the way we do, but I just get tired of it, I know cheating is not worth an attack, but when you feel you've eaten safely and had no triggers and STILL have an attack, that is what is so depressing....
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IBS-D, extreme pain and cramping - GERD - lactose/dairy intolerant, OCD, Fibromyalgia
DX: w/ Multiple Sclerosis 3/10
I can do all things through Christ who strenghtens me. Phil 4:13
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Well, yes, it is made from brown rice, but so is white rice!! Remember that it's a LIQUID; your body really doesn't have to do anything to break it down and digest it. Soy milk gave me too much gas and "rumblies", but rice milk is great and gives me no problems whatsoever. I also use rice protein powder every morning which is also made from brown rice. Don't let the brown rice part scare you - give it a shot and let your body decide!
Pacific brand makes the creamiest low fat rice milk ever! And the vanilla flavor is SO YUMMY! Rice milk tends to be thinner than soy or regular milk, but Pacific definitely has the creamiest, most milk-like texture.
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Lisa, IBS-C (Vegan)
Stable since July 2007!
Mommy to Rhiannon Marie (Dec. 13, 2008)
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It was sorta for everyone. In her book, Heather talks about how drinking milk, culturally regarded as a necessary calcium source, actually DEPLETES your body of calcium in the end. I can't remember how she explains it, but I've read that elsewhere, too. Interesting, eh?!
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Lisa, IBS-C (Vegan)
Stable since July 2007!
Mommy to Rhiannon Marie (Dec. 13, 2008)
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All I can say is that too much soy gives me gas. I drink soyfee daily so if I have anything else that day with soy as a replacement, I have to make it small. Even if I eat a whole Luna Bar I get gassy. I was drinking soy milk in my oatmeal just for the nutrition but then I switched to water. Yes...for me some reason the rice milk was giving me some c....I'm sure it's like everything else...personal. It may be fine for others. Today I am feeling sooo gassy after having a good bm this morning (oatmeal & raisins), turkey on white with two slices of tomato for lunch, 3/4 of luna bar. I wonder if it is b/c last night I had tofu filled ravioli so all the soy stuff is catching up to me? UGH...I hate IBS too. Such a guessing game. It seems we are all confused and on different pages about milk and milk products. Makes me rethink the rice shreds I was eating (had some Sunday on homemade pizza). Not often but it's only two days later so maybe that's where the gas comes in. I need to watch more closely. I'm going to hold off on trying any Lactaid milk!!!
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Originally IBS-D for a million years!
Then IBS-A, Now a transformed slightly C
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Quote:
Today I am feeling sooo gassy after having a good bm this morning (oatmeal & raisins), turkey on white with two slices of tomato for lunch, 3/4 of luna bar.
Yes, soy gives me gas, too, but raisins are MUCH worse for me than soy! My guess would be the raisins did it.
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Lisa, IBS-C (Vegan)
Stable since July 2007!
Mommy to Rhiannon Marie (Dec. 13, 2008)
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Lisa Marie...wow...never even gave it a second thought that the raisins could be causing gas. Do they cause bloating too? I have been adding them much more liberally to my oatmeal lately to be sure I have a bm before leaving the house. Ironically, I did not feel so gassy after breakfast...mostly started after lunch. Wouldn't it have started right away? Or was it coupled with the luna bar? I forgot to take a beano before eating it. Thanks.
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Originally IBS-D for a million years!
Then IBS-A, Now a transformed slightly C
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If something I ate gives me gas, I typically get the gas 6-8 hours after I ate it. Raisins, as well as plums, prunes, grapes, and most dried fruit, gives me REALLY bad gas and bloating. It bums me out, too, cuz I really like Heather's stuffing recipe, but the dried apricots give me gas, too!!
I'd leave out the raisins for a few days and see if that helps.
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Lisa, IBS-C (Vegan)
Stable since July 2007!
Mommy to Rhiannon Marie (Dec. 13, 2008)
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"(which by the way I still have NOT made it to 30 days stable)"
How long have you been trying to stabilize? Not trying to be discouraging to anyone, but I, like you, have been having a hard time regardless of how well I follow the diet and how hard I think I'm trying.
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Thank you so much for the heads up. I never even thought of them as a culprit!!  I will try some fruit instead tomorrow as my IF with my oatmeal. Interesting that the effect wouldn't take place for some hours later. Thanks again.
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Originally IBS-D for a million years!
Then IBS-A, Now a transformed slightly C
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No problem!! I guess if you allow 4-6 hours for the food to leave your stomach and enter the intestines, it would make sense for it to take 6-8 hours for the gas to occur. I mean, the gas is formed IN the intestines, right? Anyway, that's how MY body seems to work, LOL!
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Lisa, IBS-C (Vegan)
Stable since July 2007!
Mommy to Rhiannon Marie (Dec. 13, 2008)
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The idea that rice milk causes C comes from 1 or 2 posters. In probably 99.9% of the cases, it does not cause C. For the odd one maybe it might. The exception should not be considered the norm, and people who are C should not be scared away from soemthing that could be or is very good for them.
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Hi DianeM,
I have had IBS for 20 years, but in the past 6 years I have not been able to stabilize for longer then 27 or 28 days and for the past 3 1/2 I've been on the EFI diet....hope that helps, it's very discouraging
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IBS-D, extreme pain and cramping - GERD - lactose/dairy intolerant, OCD, Fibromyalgia
DX: w/ Multiple Sclerosis 3/10
I can do all things through Christ who strenghtens me. Phil 4:13
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I can't touch milk anymore. I do not have a milk allergy and I'm not lactose intolerant. Yes, I've been tested. I'm sensitive to soy if I get too much. I have learned to like rice milk in my cereal and I have never had a problem with making my C worse than it already is. I'm not one to down a glass of milk but I can't give up my cereal and once in awhile I like to have something with a cookie and rice milk seems to hit the spot.
I really think it's a bad idea for people to recommend trying milk (even fat free) or the yogurt from earlier posts because it's obviously causing confusion...especially with newer people that have not given the EFI diet a real chance.
This board was advice for those following the EFI diet. Suggesting that it's okay to try it after someone is stable, isn't good advice. I understand the desire...but many who really want to try these things are the ones newest to the diet and are still working through some of their issues. As anyone who has been on the diet for any length of time knows that some of the hardest things to give up are the ones that prove to be the worst for them and/or become easier to give up the longer you're away from them.
If you want to really stabilize, follow the EFI diet to a tee. Add one food back in at a time. It's hard but for most of us that have been here for awhile, it's worked. Don't give up and don't cheat. After you've been at it for 6 months or so and you're feeling good, you may choose to try some of the "trigger" foods or you may decide that you feel so good that chancing it just isn't worth it.
If you're still not stable and still incorporating dairy in your diet, you might want to really think about that. For some people, the reaction is not immediate. That may really be your problem as much as you don't want it to be.
I don't get into the big debates on this board because of all the defensiveness and/or so-called medical authority some people here have. I often feel like no matter what anyone says, there's someone who can pull stats from the internet to prove otherwise. If you want to believe everything you read on the internet, feel free....but think about the reason you're here. Are you here to learn more about the EFI diet and get support from people here who have been through the same and have had success or would you rather listen to someone who can quote something from Google?
I can only speak from my experience but I think it's ridiculous encouraging people to experiment with the dairy. If it works for you, great. Consider yourself lucky, count your blessings....but don't give advice against the EFI diet here.
Sheesh.
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Flipada - IBS-C "It's a gas, gas, gas"
**Lauren**
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How is the taste? (of the rice milk)
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IBS-D, extreme pain and cramping - GERD - lactose/dairy intolerant, OCD, Fibromyalgia
DX: w/ Multiple Sclerosis 3/10
I can do all things through Christ who strenghtens me. Phil 4:13
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Dairy is a trigger. Don't drink it. If you know you can handle it, silently count yourself lucky and don't encourage others to try it or that it isn't a trigger. We're all different. Just because milk doesn't cause problems for one, doesn't mean it won't send someone else sprinting to the bathroom or doubled over in pain from C. I've tried the FF/lactose free milks and they never helped me a bit.
That being said, I'm not going to engage in any debates over milk or other dairy products. Just my two cents here. 
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***********************
If you're not dead, you've still got time.
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I totally agree!
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Flipada,
Thank you for this post. It has really helped me just at the right time because I had almost decided to try skimmed milk because I was so confused by the different messages I was hearing. I will keep on with the rice milk, and I may try to introduce soy again in small quantities aswell.
I've come this far, I'm determined not to give up now!
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Thank you!
#301053 - 03/01/07 03:53 AM
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Jeio
Reged: 09/28/06
Posts: 482
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Thanks, Syl!
Edited by Jeio (03/01/07 04:36 AM)
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I'm IBS-C. You're asking a good question. It could b e that milk keeps things moving, and would cause D for D-ers? I don't know... I know IF you are lactose intolerant, it causes gas and D...
Rice milk is prescribed as a constipating agent in Eastern Europe (at least what I know about it). YOu can offset its action by eating more IF and stuff, though. Like anything else. It won't cause cramping, but the C will, but if you can eat so that you con't get C, you won't cramp. In that sense it's not unsafe, because it doesn't directly cause pain (like fat does). If I was stabilizing though, and not using a gentle laxative, I would stay away from rice milk. I was super religeous about the diet initially, I thought they had it all figured out, and so I drank some rice milk. I was very C... when I stopped drinking it I noticed a big improvement in my C... probably had too much rice milk? I had like 2-3 cups a day... and used it for baking... so, might be a little too much.
Plus, don't forget our bodies are different. Maybe we eastern Europeans have something that causes us to be constipated by things like rice milk, LOL. Seriously, though, they gave me that when I was a little kid with D (when I was sick with something) and it worked much better than when they gave me carbon. It tasted pretty gross, though, LOL
Are you taking a laxative, btw? Natural Calm or something similar?
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I am sorry, I can't figure out if that was an answer to one of my posts...
I don't want to ENCOURAGE people to drink milk. I just feel that on this board people are going a little too far in their dairy avoidance advocacy. I've said multiple times, that avoiding dairy has a price. Some people can't buy their medicines because they're buying expensive dairy alternatives. I'd rather take the INFORMATION, than be told "don't drink this or that" just as a rigid rule. Then I can decide for myself what I will do and I will carry my responsibilities as to my health.
THat's my reason for engaging into this discussion.
I understand we are different. I have some strange reactions to things I am NOT allergic to. We are just hyper sensitive to all kinds of things and I think the doctors can't measure sensitivities that precisely yet. That's probably one reason why they dismiss so many IBS patients' complaints and say "nothing's wrong" and "you'll learn to live with this" as if living with so much pain can be labeled normal and "livable with".
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If you want to really stabilize, follow the EFI diet to a tee.
There is just no more important thing. The EFI diet leads to my stabilization. I can't and won't try it all over again with milk... it's not worth my time, effort and the costs associated with it...
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I often feel like no matter what anyone says, there's someone who can pull stats from the internet to prove otherwise.
The way statistics are used nowadays is terrible. I have seen studies where they MANIPULATE the data in such an obciously bad way to get the "preferred" results... Overfitting is the rule now, too. That's why when I read articles, especially medical ones, I try to dig out people who replicated the results. Usually the results can't be replicated. It's ridiculous. And I don't think it's the statistics, it's sometimes how they designed the experiment, how they computed the statistics, how they interpret them...
Anyway, that's my field so I can go about it a long time... My point is, you are so right... I feel tempted to just say everyone is different and nothing can be generalized, so that at least peaple won't be misslead. That's not true either, though.
It's confusing, so we do our best, collect as much imformation as we can and make an informed decision. As best we can... that might not be a very good decision, but it's the best we could do.
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Jennifer, there's also almond milk. Did you try that?
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I'm not taking anything like Natural calm b/c I am really a D. It seems wo weird to be C/A now. I have to rethink everything. Although I'm SUPER happy that I don't have d anymore...just a different discomfort and stuff to figure out now.
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Originally IBS-D for a million years!
Then IBS-A, Now a transformed slightly C
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Sorry all. That's why I asked not to chop my head off when I first posted about the milk thing. I didn't want it to become a controversy. I completely agree and like I said, totally understand that dairy is supposed to be a trigger, yet it seems we all have IBS to varying degrees and I was just hoping that maybe I could tolerate it once in a while now that I am stable. I just wanted to know how many other people were stable and doing okay with it. I have been very diligent with the diet up until now and I completely agree and recommend the necessity to everyone starting out to be strict so you can get stable. I'm sorry for misleading anyone with my question but I thank all of you who gave me your input so I can weigh what's right for me. I do notice that many people who are still complaining of problems say that they have dairy once in a while and I do suggest that they rethink that decision. 
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Originally IBS-D for a million years!
Then IBS-A, Now a transformed slightly C
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[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]
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I'm IBS-C. You're asking a good question. It could b e that milk keeps things moving, and would cause D for D-ers? I don't know... I know IF you are lactose intolerant, it causes gas and D...
The idea behind Heather's guidelines is to soothe the gut regardless of whether you have D or C. Dairy is difficult to digest because of the lactose and because of the proteins so it will not soothe the gut. Even if drinking milk got a Cer moving, it would be at the possible cost of further annoying an already cranky gut.
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Rice milk is prescribed as a constipating agent in Eastern Europe (at least what I know about it). ...
Maybe we eastern Europeans have something that causes us to be constipated by things like rice milk, LOL. Seriously, though, they gave me that when I was a little kid with D (when I was sick with something) and it worked much better than when they gave me carbon. It tasted pretty gross, though, LOL
In the US, children with diarrhea are often put on the BRAT Diet for a short time - bananas, rice, applesauce, toast. As I understand it, it's not that those foods are constipating but rather that they are neutral. That is, they don't annoy the digestive tract. Or, as we say around here, they're Soluble Fiber. Perhaps that's the thinking behind giving children rice milk when they have diarrhea.
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[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]
Edited by Sand (03/01/07 09:00 AM)
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IBS-D, extreme pain and cramping - GERD - lactose/dairy intolerant, OCD, Fibromyalgia
DX: w/ Multiple Sclerosis 3/10
I can do all things through Christ who strenghtens me. Phil 4:13
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Oops! Thanks - I edited the post. Milk on the brain, I guess.
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[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]
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Dairy is difficult to digest because of the lactose and because of the proteins so it will not soothe the gut.
I get the lactose conceptu but I have not seen any research evidence that proteins in milk are more difficult to digest that proteins in any other food source. A previous posting suggests that this may not be the case
Could you provide us with some research evidence for this conclusion?
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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As I mentioned in one of my above posts, I've tried several different brands, and Pacific is by far the best. It's creamier than the others (rice milk tends to be watery compared to soy milk). The vanilla low fat kind tastes great!! I love it on dry cereal. I've even converted my husband to it from regular milk and THAT was a challenge, let me tell you! He was very stubborn until he actually tried it and realized how good it tastes.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lisa, IBS-C (Vegan)
Stable since July 2007!
Mommy to Rhiannon Marie (Dec. 13, 2008)
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[I have not seen any research evidence that proteins in milk are more difficult to digest that proteins in any other food source. ...
Could you provide us with some research evidence for this conclusion?
Nope. I'm quoting Heather whose Website this is, whose guidelines the Diet Board is about, and whose approach has worked for me.
We've gone round and round on the scientific versus anecdotal/experiential stuff before, Syl, dating back to your very first post. It seems to me a pointless exercise.
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[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]
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, I just didn't want anyone to get overly excited about milk.......lol
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IBS-D, extreme pain and cramping - GERD - lactose/dairy intolerant, OCD, Fibromyalgia
DX: w/ Multiple Sclerosis 3/10
I can do all things through Christ who strenghtens me. Phil 4:13
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History is littered with anecdotal evidence that has been disproved by scientific research (which is experimental).
I guess as usually we shall continue to disagree 
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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LOL! Yup, definitely a good catch on your part.
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[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]
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Quote:
History is littered with anecdotal evidence that has been disproved by scientific research (which is experimental).
I guess as usually we shall continue to disagree
History is also littered with scientific research that has proven to be incomplete or incorrect with further research. The most horrific example of this is probably thalidomide. In the medical field, ulcers leap to mind. In the health/food field, one thinks of margarine being touted as safer than butter - for decades.
If there was a medical/scientific cure for IBS or a medical/scientific fix for IBS symptoms, that would be one thing. In that case, if Heather was giving advice based on anecdotes and experience that was contrary to the medical/scientific advice, I'd be screaming my head off. (Well, actually, I'd be avoiding this site like the plague.) However, since the medical/scientific approach is a broken reed when it comes to IBS, all IBSers can do is rely on anecdotal/experiential evidence to try to control our symtoms as best we can.
Heather's assertion that her experience and that of other IBSers indicates diary is problematic apart from the lactose is a pretty benign statement and cutting out dairy is a pretty benign action.
I don't know what point you're trying to make by explaing that scientific research is experimental.
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[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]
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I'm IBS-C. You're asking a good question. It could b e that milk keeps things moving, and would cause D for D-ers? I don't know... I know IF you are lactose intolerant, it causes gas and D...
I was sure you were IBS-C and my intial thought was that the fat content in the milk (as small as it might be) may be having a laxative effect and moving things along. It's just that I get the impression on this site that a lot of you are IBS-D (although I am pretty new here so forgive me if I am wrong) so maybe the rice milk works for most of you for that reason...? I'm probably totally on the wrong lines here but I'm just trying to understand why Jeio can tolerate it and others can't.
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Are you taking a laxative, btw? Natural Calm or something similar?
Not sure if this was for me...but I have just started to take MagAsorb (Magnesium Citrate). No results yet but I don't know how long it is meant to take...so if anybody can shed come light then that would be great! I took one tablet night before last and took two last night (150mg per tablet), plus I also take a daily multi-vitamin and mineral supplement which has 33% of the RDA of magnesium, not sure if that makes any difference at all as to how many MagAsorb tablets I should take?!
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Jennifer, there's also almond milk. Did you try that?
I haven't tried it but I do have some sat in the cupboard unopened, lol. But surely I can't use that for everything...? I will experiment with it later as a hot chocolate, I am eager to know both HOW and IF it will work!
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whaaaat??
#301143 - 03/01/07 01:58 PM
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jen1013
Reged: 05/06/05
Posts: 1322
Loc: the wabe
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Some people can't buy their medicines because they're buying expensive dairy alternatives.
Okay, now that's going a little too far. There is no way that someone who's got his head screwed on right would be foregoing medication for dairy alternatives! At the very most each month I spend $3 on a tub of soy sour cream and $3 on two cartons of fake milk. There are plenty of ways to get calcium without eating dairy or dairy alternatives.
PS Flipada, great post -- I agree 100%!
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jen
"It's one of the most serious things that can possibly happen to one in a battle -- to get one's head cut off." -- LC
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By telling people you drink milk all the time and if it's fat free then it's okay, you are encouraging them to drink milk, and it's a little irresponsible because most newbies are looking for any little excuse to go back to drinking milk, eating pizza, etc. This is Heather's board and the board is to help people follow Heather's diet guidelines.
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I really don't know anything about IBS-A... I am sorry...My experience ends with C so, I can't help you there...
I hope you don't get D from milk if you decide to try it...
Sorry, it's my fault, the controversy and such... I should probably just leave this board and never return. I just don't want to leave, because I was helped so much by the information and people here. I feel I have to give some back. And I feel for people suffering with IBS... well, I'm just making excuses for myself. It's my fault, don't blame yourself, dear.
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History is also littered with scientific research that has proven to be incomplete or incorrect with further research. The most horrific example of this is probably thalidomide. In the medical field, ulcers leap to mind. In the health/food field, one thinks of margarine being touted as safer than butter - for decades.
Hmmm. It was a science that figured out thalidomide was the problem. It was science that found the baterial source of ulcers (Dr. Barry Marshall, an Australian scientist). It is industry that moves products from science into the market and created the difficulties you alude to. However, this is not the issue.
The EFI diet is a set of guidelines not a set of rules. It definitely is wise for anyone trying to stablize to eliminate dairy and many other foods from their diet. However, once they are stable we should make them feel comfortable experimenting with the EFI diet to figure out for themselves which of the guidelines are rules. This includes experimenting with diary!
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STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
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Well, I happen to think this board is about giving people information. I was looking for that at least, when I came here.
I didn't expect an answer to all of my questions. I just wanted to KNOW whatever information there is. And I found plenty of information, for which I am grateful. Having information means also having responsibility. You want me to keep my information to myself, so the newbies, who don't have the responsibility to stick to the EFI diet, don't cheat? I don't think that's right. They can carry their responsibility while I carry mine.
In addition: how are we to discuss more "deep" topics (requiring more experience with the diet or IBS) if we keep making sure everything is simple and clear cut so newbies won't get confused? Or maybe we should not discuss anything "deep"?
I agree with Flipada, if someone wants to believe everything they find on the internet, go ahead... applied to the anti-dairy attitudes also (to call them the least).
I admit that I do not know how IBS works or why dairy doesn't bother me, or why it bothers other people. I don't know many other things and I am no doctor. (Does that sound like a good disclaimer) My doctor said dairy should not be a problem for ME (after having looked at my blood chemistry, and after reassuring me that all my enzymes and stuff levels are completely healthy). I don't know if those people who are not lactose intollerant, maybe they lack some enzyme to process something, or not lack, but have less of it... or maybe it's one of the many things doctors don't yet measure (because they don't know about it for example). I don't know.
Thanks for everything Was nice talking to you and I am sorry that I angered you guys.
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Okay, now that's going a little too far. There is no way that someone who's got his head screwed on right would be foregoing medication for dairy alternatives!
Well, some people don't have their heads screwed right then. I really don't want to get into this, but I've seen it happen.
If you had to choose between buying fennel tea (for example) and buying almond milk, what would you choose? Think about it. It needn't be medication like prescription...
I don't want to offend you by saying this, really. Just want to suggest that you think about that too.
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Quote:
Quote:
History is also littered with scientific research that has proven to be incomplete or incorrect with further research. The most horrific example of this is probably thalidomide. In the medical field, ulcers leap to mind. In the health/food field, one thinks of margarine being touted as safer than butter - for decades.
Hmmm. It was a science that figured out thalidomide was the problem. It was science that found the baterial source of ulcers (Dr. Barry Marshall, an Australian scientist). It is industry that moves products from science into the market and created the difficulties you alude to.
Um, not exactly. It was science that originally said thalidomide was safe. It was science that insisted - for years - that ulcers were caused by stress and spicy food and bacteria had nothing to do with it. It was science that said margarine was safer than butter. Science eventually got it right but science got it wrong first.
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The EFI diet is a set of guidelines not a set of rules. It definitely is wise for anyone trying to stablize to eliminate dairy and many other foods from their diet. However, once they are stable we should make them feel comfortable experimenting with the EFI diet to figure out for themselves which of the guidelines are rules. This includes experimenting with diary!
Hey, I have no problem with IBSers keeping diaries. After all, there have been many famous diarists throughout history and I've never heard that keeping a diary makes IBS worse. (Although I understand Pepys may have suffered from urinary tract stones.)
As for dairy, my position is "I believe dairy proteins are problematic for IBSers"; you are representing my position as "people shouldn't experiment even after they're stable". I don't dance with straw men.
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[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]
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Jeio
#301163 - 03/01/07 03:30 PM
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Sand
Reged: 12/13/04
Posts: 4490
Loc: West Orange, NJ (IBS-D)
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Sorry, it's my fault, the controversy and such... I should probably just leave this board and never return. I just don't want to leave, because I was helped so much by the information and people here. I feel I have to give some back. And I feel for people suffering with IBS... well, I'm just making excuses for myself. It's my fault, don't blame yourself, dear.
I don't see any reason for you to leave. You say what you have to say and other people either agree or disagree - some of us more vociferously than others. 
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[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]
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This has come up before, directly from Heather. Heather pays for this board. The purpose of this board is to discuss the IBS diet as "created" by Heather. This diet involves eliminating dairy, therefore, we shouldn't be posting suggestions to the contrary. Heather has commented before (I wish I could remember the topic...) that it CAN be confusing for newbies when people post about having a glass of skim milk, or eating cereal with lactaid.
It's one thing to suggest someone try eating a tomato (categorized as IF) to see if they can handle it; it's quite another to suggest that they drink a glass of milk (categorized as a TRIGGER).
Are we done now??
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lisa, IBS-C (Vegan)
Stable since July 2007!
Mommy to Rhiannon Marie (Dec. 13, 2008)
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There is no need to leave the board, but do respect Heather's diet and guidelines. As Lisa Marie said Heather has commented on stuff like this before.
I've been on this board for a little over a year now and in that time I have seen a few posts from people who at one point were stable, then suddenly they weren't and they didn't know why because they were "following Heather's diet" but it actually turned out that they were eating a bunch of triggers including dairy. Other posters who were newbies would swear they were following Heather's diet except for the dairy thing which they couldn't do without and they were sure dairy wasn't a problem for them. But they didn't know why their IBS wasn't improving.
If people want to have dairy they can go right ahead and drink milk, eat cheese, slather their foods with butter because no one is stopping them. But then they shouldn't come on here complaining that Heather's diet doesn't work.
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--------------------
Originally IBS-D for a million years!
Then IBS-A, Now a transformed slightly C
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Re: milk
#301199 - 03/01/07 06:19 PM
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dmdentre
Reged: 06/09/04
Posts: 47
Loc: New England
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Hey - I have no problems with dairy as long as it is low fat. Even though some people can't have it and there is evidence that it may be problematic, doesn't mean that it is a problem for everyone. I have skim milk with my cereal and yogurt every day with no problems. I hope that you can enjoy your cereal!
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Re: milk
#301234 - 03/02/07 08:08 AM
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atomic rose
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 7013
Loc: Maine (IBS-A stable since July '05!)
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If I have an adverse reaction after a week or so, it won't make me totally unstable, right?
Actually, WRONG. It can potentially completely destabilize you. If I were you, I wouldn't go there.
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Quote:
Hey - I have no problems with dairy as long as it is low fat. Even though some people can't have it and there is evidence that it may be problematic, doesn't mean that it is a problem for everyone. I have skim milk with my cereal and yogurt every day with no problems. I hope that you can enjoy your cereal!
One final query on this...please don't let it turn into a huge debate though?! I am following Heather's diet, including avoiding all dairy, and have been following it since early December. I also take acacia and have started taking MagAsorb but at the moment I consider myself still to be very unstable - very bloated and usually very constipated - although I did have a BM yesterday (my first in 10 days!!)
So here's my question...If and when I finally become stable...can I add milk into my diet to see how it affects me...the reason being so I can find out if it does actually affect me? Otherwise how will I ever know if it is actually a trigger FOR ME or not? I understand that it may cause havoc with my system if I do decide to try it but I'd rather know for definite that I cannot tolerate milk before I go the rest of my life avoiding it...you know? I mean, does that seem advisable?
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Stop!!!
#301237 - 03/02/07 08:33 AM
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oldestofseven
Reged: 12/30/06
Posts: 156
Loc: tiny almost unheard of town in the middle of Va
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Guys, come on,, just drop it, will you? The original poster has already said three times that she didn't want this to happen, and to just drop it,, why can't you all respect that?? I'm not going to get involved in this anymore, I just want to stop seeing new posts under this topic,,, do you realize that it has gotten so bad that some people are posting new topics just to get this one to end?? Gosh.
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Adrianna, IBS-D, stable since May 2007, living life to the fullest because of it!
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can i just say and please dont take offence anyone, but you do realise your arguing over milk? everyone has got diff views, we all lead different lives and have different experiences with our ibs, so no ones experiences with milk is exactly the same. for me personally, i switched to rice milk and soy cheese a while ago and apart from the ocassionally chocolate bar or cookie i never really think about missing it, i feel extremely lucky that i have not got crohns, colitis etc and that if all i have to do isavoid foods like milk to stay healthy than im bloody lucky! rice milk is the new milk for me- i drink at least two cartons a week and to be honest i cant remember what milk tastes like! i dont trust uk farming at the moment anyway!
remember we are all here for a common purpose, if people dont have a problem with milk, then lucky them, but please dont think milk is something to re-introduce, its not like insoluble fibre. if people choose to do that then fine, but those who do then please dont post that you are still having attacks, as it is understandbly frustrating to people who are desperately try everything they can and still feel crappy!
please remember we are all trying to find a way, we are lucky that we can help ourselves and are not stuck with some terminal disease, so lets support each other not argue!
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Re: milk
#301240 - 03/02/07 08:36 AM
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oldestofseven
Reged: 12/30/06
Posts: 156
Loc: tiny almost unheard of town in the middle of Va
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Quote:
So here's my question...If and when I finally become stable...can I add milk into my diet to see how it affects me...the reason being so I can find out if it does actually affect me? Otherwise how will I ever know if it is actually a trigger FOR ME or not? I understand that it may cause havoc with my system if I do decide to try it but I'd rather know for definite that I cannot tolerate milk before I go the rest of my life avoiding it...you know? I mean, does that seem advisable?
I think this is just too personal to ask, I mean, everyone is different, so if you want to try it, go ahead, no one can stop you. We're supposed to figure out our triggers through Trial and Error, right? So if you think you're ready to try it, go for it. If it destabilizes you, then you know that its a trigger and you won't do it again. (generally, not pointing fingers here)
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Adrianna, IBS-D, stable since May 2007, living life to the fullest because of it!
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Re: milk
#301242 - 03/02/07 09:09 AM
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GaiasSong
Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 267
Loc: SC (IBS-D/P) - STABLE! Spring 2007
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One of the first things I always keep in mind about Heather's diet is that, as she's said, it isn't about deprivation--it's about creative substitution. I know some folks complain about the substitutions for various reasons, but if you give it a chance, you *will* get used to them and the thing you're trying to avoid won't taste right to you anymore. If soy milk makes you gassy, take some Beano, or try rice, almond, oat milks. If nothing works, or nothing satisfies you, then you have a couple of choices:
1) either go without the trigger food, or 2) eat the trigger food and risk more attacks. To me it is really that simple.
In my experience, the way to be successful and get the best results with this diet is to follow its recommendations and not cheat. Of course, your mileage may vary. But I too am concerned about confusing the new people re. the dairy issue.
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Check multiple sources and make the best-informed decision possible!
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I never get involved and usually don't read these sort of long debates and haven't read much of this one at all. But here I just have to point out: if you are going to cheat and have dairy why milk when there is cheese? drool! Milk has decent substitutes but not cheese. Oh how I long for cheese! I had to tag all our new fancy cheeses at work yesterday and I so wanted to eat them and come on, soy cheese is not cheese! Why fight about milk when we should be comforting each other over cheese!
Keeping it light and real.
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IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!
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