Insoluble/soluble
#288471 - 10/30/06 03:57 PM
|
|
|
|
|
j0ey
Reged: 10/30/06
Posts: 7
|
|
|
I hope this doesnt irritate anyone. In read throught all the information on the topics. It's still kind of unclear to me.
Insoluble = bulkier,harder,drier
soluble = gel,moist,gooey
Am I on the right track? the confusion started when the definitions started using similar illustartions for both types of fiber.
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
Yes, you're right sort of, but remember the bulkier/harder and the moist/gooey properties can be caused by other things in the food. Thus you do have that yes:
Insoluble is harder, drier and bulkier, and soluble fiber is moister and gooeyer, but you don't have the reverse implication, namely that if something is gooey it is necessarily safe to eat (high SF content). Example: I think mushrooms are a trigger for me, although they are gooey and listed as SF food (I am not sure they are SF, there were topics here saying they were mostly IF)
HTH
Jerry, IBS-C
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
I just use the lists as described here: web page
--------------------
[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]
Edited by Sand (10/30/06 04:38 PM)
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
The notion of dietary fiber being composed of SF and IF was replaced with a new definition by the Food Nutrition Board in 2000. The old SF & IF definition was based on chemical and physiological behaviour of fiber. The new definition separates total fiber into two components dietary and functional fibers. These are defined as follows
Dietary Fiber consists of nondigestible carbohydrates and lignin that are intrinsic and intact in plants.
Functional Fiber consists of isolated, nondigestible carbohydrates that have beneficial physiological effects in humans.
Total Fiber is the sum of Dietary Fiber and Functional Fiber.
As described in the report, Dietary Reference Intakes: Proposed Definition of Dietary Fiber (IOM, 2001),
Quote:
Dietary Fiber includes plant nonstarch polysaccharides (e.g., cellulose, pectin, gums, hemicellulose, β-glucans, and fibers contained in oat and wheat bran), plant carbohydrates that are not recovered by alcohol precipitation (e.g., inulin, oligosaccharides, and fructans), lignin, and some resistant starch. Potential Functional Fibers for food labeling include isolated, nondigestible plant (e.g., resistant starch, pectin, and gums), animal (e.g., chitin and chitosan), or commercially produced (e.g., resistant starch, polydextrose, inulin, and indigestible dextrins) carbohydrates.
One of the impacts of this change is that dietary fiber in addition to SF & IF includes things like resistant starch. These are starches that act like SF and they can be gooey. Also unlike some other SF they are easily fermentable by the microflora in the large bowel. For example, resistant starches are found in rice, pasta and potatoes.
New insights into dietary fibre is a good overview article written by nutrition and dietary specialists at Kellogg Canada.
Reference
Dietary Reference Intakes for Energy, Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol, Protein, and Amino Acids (Macronutrients) (2002), Chapter 7. Dietary, Functional, and Total Fiber copyright 2002, 2001 The National Academy of Sciences,
--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
So it is possible to get the firmness and bulkyness im looking for without spending multiple trips to the restroom from all this fiber?
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
Today for me its been
1) peanuttbutter (creamy) & jelly sandwich whole grain bread.
2)green sugar snap peas(whole bag)
3)2 salads with mixed veggie slices
4)a slice of canadian baccon & pineapple pizza.
5) about 2 cups of seedless grapes.
I've tried Avocado for bulk and for me it turned out to be the opposite of firm.
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
Have you read the outline of this diet and started following it?
I don't see much SF in your diet. The avocado is SF, but if you are using that to try and bulk up BMs, it is quite high in fat and may not be so safe on its own. I personally eat Avocado with another form of SF such as rice or pita bread.
Bacon (red meat) and pizza (cheese) are trigger foods and should be avoided completely.
You are eating a lot of IF which is good if you can tolerate it. But you definetly need some more SF in there too.
--------------------
Kat
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
That is a good way of putting it.
SF = white, mushy; white rice, bread, pita bread, potato, banana, applesauce, etc
but also carrots, sweet potato, avocado etc (see Heather's list)
For IF, I look at it as:
Anything that is not SF, and not a trigger, which is most whole grains, vegetables and fruit. Foods with a noticeable rough or stringy texture, or covered with a hull (corn, beans etc) are less tolerable IF.
--------------------
Kat
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
k2- your advice is much appreciated.
I've read the outline. I just scared myself away from too much Sf because as it tends to be gooey. which is the opposite of my goal. I should have tried as you mentioned more Sf with the Avocado.
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
What exactly is your goal?
If you want firmer larger BMs (not loose, D, watery) then increasing SF can help with this. The gooey texture of SF binds together to better form a BM. As an IBS-D I found that I did not have normal firm BMs until I increased my SF, both from foods and from a supplement like Acacia.
Are you IBS-D or IBS-C?
--------------------
Kat
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
My goal is to get firmer (dry) Bm. If it's bulky thats fine to me. My problem has always been the fight against my crave to eat high protein diets and get a healthy BM. As you know there is no fiber in meats so its always a challenge for me.
You asked if i'm IBS-C, or IBS-D. I havent been diagnosed with either. I've always had trouble with my Bms being very unhealthy usualy loose, hot, after certain foods often meat leaves me with warm or burn feelings. I come here because you people are very intuned to your health/nutrition and in general your bodies. After reading what impact food has on the body I think that an IBS Diet will really help my situation.
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
K2's advice is what you should be following, as it is the whole gist of Heather's program. Your sample diet seemed shocking to me when I first read it because it sounded like more IF than could be handled by most at least at first, especially the salads or the veggies with no sf to cushion them. It depends on if you are c or d, but I would think that if you wanted to keep a similar diet (minus the meat and cheese triggers), you could try eating just a bit of what you already are but matching it up with some sf like rice or pasta or white bread/bagel. I'm a d and I'm just learning, but the sf has definitely started to help give me some formed/bulkier BMs anyway.
--------------------
Originally IBS-D for a million years!
Then IBS-A, Now a transformed slightly C
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
You don't necessarily have to have a specific diagnosis of c or d...it sounds like you already know that you lean towards d. Even if you don't have IBS (be sure to get tested for all kinds of things suggested on this site before you assume it's nothing else), it sounds like meat is a real trigger for you, as it is for most people who suffer from IBS. I don't know if you've been just reading the boards or also have read Heather's books, but even the FAQs and multiple posts for newbies can clarify what foods (and don't forget drinks too) are yes, no, and proceed with caution. You may just have a sensitive tummy to certain foods but you won't know until you eliminate and do the break the cycle diet, then start adding in things slowly. Don't be afraid of sf...if your bowels tend to be loose, sf is our friend! 
--------------------
Originally IBS-D for a million years!
Then IBS-A, Now a transformed slightly C
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
High protein diet is fine! Don't fight that urge. The thing you have to do is get the protein from proper (non-trigger) sources, and eat some SF with it too. IBS-safe sources of protein are also the healthiest.
Here's what protein I eat:
chicken and turkey breast
salmon, tuna, white fish
shrimp
soy, tofu
egg whites
If you have loose, hot, frequent BMs then that is IBS-D. If you go days without a BM then that is more IBS-C. It is possible to suffer from both alternating, which is IBS-A.
To bulk up loose BMs you need more SF. I suggest you read on this website the soluble/insoluble sections until you have a really good understanding of how these fibers affect your digestive system and BMs.
Let us know how it goes,
--------------------
Kat
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
" if your bowels tend to be loose, sf is our friend! "
LOL, well said!
--------------------
Kat
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
This Forum really is amazing. Thank you. honestly I didnt think i'd find people who are so open to this topic. It's een encouraging. 
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
I wish I understood more about resistant starch. How to get it into the diet...and if you have to purchase this specific type of corn product and make your own breads with it...or what.
I don't understand what you would eat in a typical day. Can you give us an example of what your normal day looks like? Please?
--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
Resistant starch is found in rice, potatoes and pasta. The amount increases when these foods cool. There is more resistant starch in cold rice, potatoes and pasta than when they are hot. It is found in other foods too.
You may recall that in a different message thread I asked if you had tried the new formulation of Benefiber . It contains wheat dextrin which behaves like a resistant starch.
In a typical day I eat
Breakfast
Oatmeal with low fructose fruit (unripe banana, kiwi or berries) without milk (of any kind soy, rice or other) sprinkled with brown sugar.
Lunch
Curried or stir fried vegetables (carrots, zucchini, etc) with shrimp, scallops and a small amount of chicken or pork tenderloin on 1/2 cup of cold rice re-heated. I use a small amount of olive oil in my curry or stir fry.
Supper
Grilled or roasted chicken breast, pork tenderloin or bison with a good helping of veggies and potatoes, rice or pasta.
I have IBS friendly snack throughout the day. I don't take any SFS
I hope this helps.
--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
Thanks! You can reheat the starch after it is cooled and it stool works? I have to tell you, I wasn't too keen on eating cold rice, potatoes, and pasta!
Your oatmeal is cold at first too? And unripe bananas (green ones) have less fructose than really ripe ones? I read that unripe bananas tend to cause constipation more than ripe ones. And, that ripe bananas were easier to digest. 
Do you usually only stick to one serving of fruit a day? Intentionally?
The thing with benefiber is that I read that wheat is an irritant for IBS. And that's what my doctor has told me too. Plus, it just sounds so IF. 
Thanks so much Syl.
--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
fructose
#288689 - 11/01/06 12:32 PM
|
|
|
|
|
Jordy
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 2095
|
|
|
does applesauce and/or apples contain too much fructose? More than pears, which are pretty high, I think.
--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
You have asked a good question. I have yet to determine if heating cold rice, pasta and potatoes reduces the amount of resistant starch. It might. I usually reheat my rice because I don;t like cold rice very much. However, cold rice is used in sushi and cold potato or pasta salad made with a tiny bit of olive oil, mustard and seasoning is wonderful 
I eat my oatmeal hot
Sometimes I have two serving of fruit. The second serving is usually in the evening perhaps with a slice of homemade zucchine cake.
I am not sure about bananas. I know that I can only eat bananas that are not ripe.
--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
And just to clarify, You DO reheat all your potatoes, rice, and pasta, right?
--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
or if the potatoes have peels left on or not?
Sorry so many questions!
--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
Re: fructose
#288693 - 11/01/06 12:47 PM
|
|
|
|
|
Syl
Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA
|
|
|
I know that apples are a high fructose fruit. Apples and pears have about the same amount of free fructose. Of course it depends on the variety.
Some people have said that cooking apples to make apple sauce reduces the amount of fructose but I have not been able to find evidence to support the idea that heat degrades fructose. I do know that heating white sugar produces inverted sugar - that is sucrose is broken into its constituent components of glucose and fructose. I suspect that people who can tolerate apples and apple sauce are not very sensitive to fructose.
--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
...to fructose? Did you have a fructose intolerance test or do trial and error? what symptoms do fructose products cause you?
It's nice having a scientist on the boards! 
--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
I only eat white rice. I peel all veggies. And I usually reheat rice, potatoes and pasta or eat it hot as soon as I cook it. I am not too fussy about getting an increased amount of resistant starch due to cooling. For me the important thing is to get a good serving of one of these food items with lunch and dinner.
--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
D, gas, bloating and pain  When I removed honey, HFCS and high fructose fruits and juices I found I had much better control over my IBS. There is a breath test but no one does that test in my area. Of course, fructose is only one of many triggers that I have to watch out for.
--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
Quote:
And I usually reheat rice, potatoes and pasta or eat it hot as soon as I cook it.
If you eat it hot right after cooking it, how does it make it "resistant" starch and not any different then regular soluble fiber? I want to try resistant starch, but want to make sure I do it correctly.
I get a newsletter from Sophie and one of the constipation "success" stories stated that that person also ate resistant starch, but she didn't explain what it was or how she ate it...cold or hot, right after eating it.
--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
I put some links to information about resistant starch in an early posting in this message thread. Here is another interesting article from the resistant starch web site on increasing resistant starch in your diet.
Resistant starch naturally occurs in such things as rice, potatoes and pasta. However, in some foods the amount of resistant starch increases due to crystalization as the food cools. As I recall in rice the amount of resistant starch can increase by as much as two times when it cools. I don't know if the amount decreases again if it is reheated. I have a helping of rice, pasta or potatoes with lunch and supper.
I hope it helps.
--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
Well, that second article sounds like they have to be eaten cold in order to sustain resistance.
--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
Well - I think that article is trying to tell you how to maximize your resistant starch. Research has shown that there more resistant starch in cold that hot potatoes, rice and pasta. As I recall hot rice contains about 7% by weight and this increased to about 12% when cooled. I have not seen any information on what happens when cooled rice is reheated. I will look for better information and get back to you.
--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
Here is an interesting article on resistant starch from rice. It explains how cooling increases the amount of resistant starch.
I am still looking for information on the percentage increase that cooling can produce. 
--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
Here is another interesting article that talks about resistant starch in the food processing industry. It says
Quote:
For instance, a cold, boiled potato contains about 13.5 percent resistant starch of the RS 3 type, while the same boiled potato served hot contains about 6.7 percent resistant RS3 starch.
Still looking for rice
--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
have you found anything about heating cold starches back up?
Thank you so much.
--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
Sorry but
#295278 - 01/04/07 04:42 PM
|
|
|
|
|
Syl
Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA
|
|
|
I have been looking for an answer to that question for a few months. So far I have not had any luck. Resistant starch research is relatively new. I think I might have to contact a food chemist.
--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
Here is a partial answer to the question of reheating resistant starch. Note RS3 is a type of resistant starch.
Quote:
RS3 is present in most starchy foods, which have been cooked then cooled and stored for several hours, up to several months. Retrogradation is a recrystallisation of starch chains, which occurs after gelatinisation when the product has not been immediately dried. Single chains form double helixes. Mainly the linear fraction of the starch, the amylose, is involved; amylopectin, however, can also retrograde, although a much longer time is needed. Cooked and cooled potatoes have been shown to contain RS3 in significant amounts (Englyst & Cummings, 1987). Reheating of starch reduces the RS3 content of the potato, showing that the retrogradation is partly reversible. Several cycles of heating and cooling, however, allow an increase in the RS3 levels.
Reference
Champ, M., A.-M. Langkilde, F. Brouns, B. Kettlitz, and Y. L. Bail-Collet, 2003: Advances in dietary fibre characterisation. 2. Consumption, chemistry, physiology and measurement of resistant starch; implications for health and food labelling. Nutrition Research Reviews, 16, 143–161.
--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
So, sounds like reheating it decreases the resistant starch, but repeated heating and cooling and heating helps reduce the amount that is lost? And do you still end up having to eat cold potatoes because it has to be cold at time of consumption?
If this is too many questions, don't bother, Syl! I've been trying to research this as well. If I find anything, I'll let you know.
--------------------
IBS-C with pain and bloat
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
|
|
The process I use is to cool heated potatoes, pasta and rice and briefly reheat them in the microwave to warm before I eat them. I am quite sure that this processes gives more resistant starch than when they are hot but perhaps a little less than then they are cool.
--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS
The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS
Print
Remind Me
Notify Moderator
|
Posts
