Potentially heretical question
#231374 - 12/13/05 05:04 PM
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Emily H.
Reged: 02/28/05
Posts: 83
Loc: Luxembourg, LU
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So, I've been thinking about something, and I wanted to run it by all of you at the risk of sounding completely crazy. Three of the women I know (all in their late 50s now) were diagnosed with IBS in their 20s. They were given variations on what used to be the theme: lots of fiber, bland foods, excercise. All of them followed it, all of them suffered moderate-to-horrible symptoms for 2-5 years, but all of them are now fine. One can eat anything no problem, and the other two just have to be careful about eating too much really rich food.
This makes me wonder, given something else: I've heard from reputable sources that completely cutting something out of your diet makes it harder to introduce (sometimes even impossible) later, because your body "forgets" how to deal with it - even for totally healthy people.
Is there any evidence to suggest that just "toughing it out" for a while will allow us to recover, while following the diet strictly just means that we're reinforcing our various intolerances? Bear in mind here that I'm as averse to pain, suffering and embarrassment as the next person, but if a few years of misery lead to a lifetime of being a "normal" person, I'm tempted to try.
So, am I a heretic?
~Emily
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I've had IBS for 18 years. I tried that - toughing it out, I mean. And it didn't work. I was able to go a couple years without symptoms, but then they came back again with a vengeance.
For the most part, the things that we're supposed to cut out of our diet completely (or at least almost completely) - dairy, red meat, caffeine, fatty foods - are things that aren't healthy for *any* person anyway, whether they have IBS or not. You really have nothing to gain by "toughing it out"... and a generally much-healthier lifestyle to gain by following a low-fat diet, eating plenty of veggies safely, and getting exercise.
Just my .02, of course.
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It's true that all of our diets are healthier, I guess I just get weary of the explaining and restaurant issues that go with IBS. And I love cheese. A lot. I grew up in Switzerland, where heavy, fatty, yummy cheese meals were what defined the winter. But you're right... Sigh.
I've tried toughing it out, too, and that didn't work so well for me either. Mostly curious about others' experiences.
BTW, I see you're from Maine - I'm going to be up there for Xmas week, and am really looking forward to it. Beautiful state! 
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First of all, let me preface by saying that I think my IBS is moderate. I have had excruciating bouts, but I'm not sure I suffer as much as some other people on the boards, so what I do might not work for everyone.
We only get one trip through this life, and I'm not going to spend it depriving myself of everything I crave. So, if I want a piece of cheese, I eat a piece of cheese. I know I'll pay for it for days or even a week, but sometimes it's worth it, in moderation. I'll probably never have a serving of fettucine alfredo again, but I might have a bite, or two, or three, and be gassy and crampy later but live to tell the story. I think the anxiety we can give ourselves by banning certain foods and thinking of them like poison can hurt our gut as much as the food itself. So, I don't go nuts. If I'm having a stable day, I'll get a slice of swiss on my turkey sandwich. I know it's not going to kill me, and I'm willing to put up with the discomfort for a while. Same goes for alcohol. I'm in law school, I live in Manhattan, and I'm 24. Abstinence from alcohol simply does not fit into my lifestyle. So, I drink, and I pay the next day (as do most people, incidentally).
All this being said, I do have one policy from which I do not waver: I do NOT keep "cheat" foods in the house. No dairy, no red meat, no alcohol whatsoever. I allow myself to have bits of these things on special occasions out of the house, and that's it.
If your symptoms are not crippling, maybe this is something you can try?
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Amanda
I live in the Big Apple, but I don't eat the skin
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But you know what? It's getting a lot easier to eat out than it used to be. Back when I first started having to eat low-fat, I had to special-order food EVERYWHERE I went. These days, I can almost always find something that ok... I just have to "hold the cheese" or ask for "sauce on the side". As for the explaining... well, I'm pretty blunt about things, so I almost always just tell people that that's the way it is so shut up. 
Hey! Small world - I'm actually a native New Yorker! I moved up here 2 years ago. Whereabouts in Maine will you be? I'm assuming you'll be downstate from where I am - I live waaaaay up in the boonies, hehe. But it's a beautiful state no matter where you are in it, that's for sure. I love it here.
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I was going to get into that too, but... well, I didn't. LOL!
I'd be lying if I said that I still follow the diet so religiously and never allow myself "cheat" foods. I know what I can get away with, and I even have a pretty severe case of IBS. Dairy just kills me, so I don't eat it. EVER. Chocolate, on the other hand... *ahem*. Ditto for red meat, and the occasional soda or glass of wine. HOWEVER - these foods are not part of my regular diet, and like Panda, I don't keep them in the house, because I know that if I did, I'd eat them all the time and I'd end up right back where I started.
It really is all about balance - staying healthy, but allowing yourself enough "goodies" to be happy. Just remember that they're "treats" and not something to be eaten with wild abandon. I know that eating "whatever I want" isn't going to work.
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Ditto.
(I wish this board had a thumbs up icon)
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I am able to cheat in moderation...I will NOT eat fried food because it is my worst trigger but I don't like it anyway.
I do keep triggers in my house because I have a husband and two kids and they can manage cheese and red meat but on a whole I don't eat it.
You just need to find a proper balance for yourself...IBS isn't like the common cold, everyone has different triggers.
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Have a blessed day!...Rachel
stable and sooooooo thankful!
I have IBS but it doesn't have me!
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Even following the diet "strictly" still allows for several of the trigger foods so that the body is used to them; e.g. eating 20% fat in meals helps the gut stay tolerant of fats and making sure to eat plenty of IF with meals makes that tolerable too. In fact the only foods that are completely forbidden are foods to which a person has a specific intolerance. Even Heather says having small amounts of chocolate, dairy products etc (or a bite or two of steak) is okay when stable. So the principles of making your gut tolerate things are a part of this diet IMO.
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IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!
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And I guess I do the same. Chocolate is my biggest weakness - since I've always preferred dark anyway, I eat it like (lowfat) peanut butter: in small doses, but more frequently than I probably should. Although aside from that I do tend to follow the diet pretty strictly, to the point that I pretty much only eat out at Asian restaurants. It's that part that I need to loosen up on, I know, but I've had some wretched experiences trying to get other restaurants to modify things, so I'm skeptical. Mostly, since I work and I hate having to go anywhere when I'm feeling the least bit icky, I'm too paranoid to eat anything I know will be bad - don't even enjoy it, really. And hey - at least on Manhattan there are 1001 Asian restaurants of all varieties, even all the way uptown where we live.
Casey - I'll be in Bridgeton, right next to the ME/NH border in S. ME. My fiance's family has been skiing up at Shawnee Peak for years, and it's my first Xmas with them. I'm pretty excited - haven't been skiing in two years! And, actually, we may be up in the boonies sometime soon - thinking about doing the Appalaichan Trail. Eek. 
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Emily
#231720 - 12/15/05 03:42 AM
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atomic rose
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 7013
Loc: Maine (IBS-A stable since July '05!)
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It gets easier, I promise. I'm sorry you've had such bad restaurant experiences; since there's a few other New Yorkers on here, I'm wondering if maybe someone else could give you some suggestions about "good" (accomodating) restaurants? I'd start a new post for that one.
Yup, I know where Bridgeton is. I figured you'd be downstate. I'm 4 hours or so north of where you'll be - LOL! If you *do* decide to do the Appalachian Trail, I live near the northernmost point of it, for sake of reference. Boonies, like I say. Heh.
First Christmas with the fiance's family, and skiing to boot! How exciting! I hope it's a wonderful time!
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I tend toward Asian too, because it's pretty much my favorite anyway, and because it requires the least adaptation. But, it's NYC, sister ... you can be as demanding as you need to be! When I go to a typical American / Italian / Mexican / whatever restaurant, I try to find the item that requires the least adaptation, and then just ask very sweetly and with a great big smile if they wouldn't mind please leaving the cheese off. This works almost every time (unless the sandwiches are pre-made, stuff like that). The only real problem I've had is when the menu isn't descriptive. Once, at Fiddlesticks down in the W. Village, I ordered a pasta that the menu said had fresh tomatoes and basil. It came with cream sauce. I thought that was a pretty big bit of information to leave off the menu, and I didn't mind asking for something new. I just said I'm sorry, I couldn't tell from the menu that this had a cream sauce, and I can't eat dairy. Can I have some plain pasta with a light garlic / oil sauce? Most places are happy to oblige, and I'm more than happy to tip for it.
By the way, in authentic Italian restaurants, it's tantamount to a sin to put anything cheese-related on shellfish. So, with the exception of lobster ravioli in cream sauce, most shellfish dishes will not have any cheese on them, making them a much safer bet. Plus shrimp is yummmmmy.
You said you are uptown. E or W side? I know some good places all around, and would be happy to make some recs. How long have you lived here? I'm going on my third year now.
Hope your commute doesn't get screwed up on Friday!!!!
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Amanda
I live in the Big Apple, but I don't eat the skin
Edited by AmandaPanda (12/15/05 04:01 AM)
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Isn't there also a theory out there, that stress is the ultimate factor, and that the stomach issues are just side effects? Thus in theory, if one could live a completly, and utterly stress free lifestyle, one would be sick so often if at all?? (I may be wrong in this, as i'm sure there is alot of ibs info that may be incorrect...)
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my IBS (if I have it) is also not too bad. Before I even knew of IBS, I've always had to think about what I eat---because I'm allergic to peanuts, and had an iffy stomach since I remember. My grandma always said I inherited that from her!
So after all this time, it's really not "work" anymore to know what I can eat. For instance, certain veggies are OUT. But I can tolerate dairy. Most things I can tolerate well, if I don't overdo it. Or if I REALLY want beans, for instance, I think...what I am doing later? Just in case I will have gas!!
Sometimes I think about people with no digestive problems, and wonder what's it like to just eat whatever, but I think I eat pretty healthy as a result of all this (and have seriously upper my water intake too), so I don't really get bothered. People always used to feel sorry for me about avoiding peanuts, but I hardly expend any effort in that these days, it's like I just subconsciously deal with it.
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Stress is a big factor but even without stress the body would still have a hard time digesting fat, dairy, red meat etc. Yet diet alone is not a cure for IBS.
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IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!
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Your experience with the cream sauce sounds exactly like mine. Funny. And I know I should be more demanding, but it's the good little Midwestern/Swiss girl in me that's too polite. Thanks for the recommendations about Italian - I love it, but have always been a little skeptical with all the cream and oil. I'll have to try channeling the picky New Yorker in me...
For my two cents, I love Monsoon on the corner of 81st and Amsterdam. It's a Vietnamese restaurant. Franchia - Park/34th is also good (vegan - yummy yummy desserts, and try the pumpkin noodles). So is Galanga, W4th and 6th - great cheap Thai in a really intimate setting.
I'm on the very upper west side - near 214th and Broadway, within sight of the Bronx. It's a great neighborhood, with lots of parks and families and all that good stuff, but only 2 restaurants worth mentioning. If you have any ideas up this far, I'm all ears.
I've been in the city about 6 months now, and I have to admit I'm still adjusting. Before this I lived in Chicago, which is pretty relaxed though still a big city, and in high school I lived in Switzerland - very chill. Though - NYC is great for us IBSers, given the wide variety of dining and shopping possibilities. Have you had the lowfat cookies sold everywhere? They're not quite "the real thing" but not too bad ( check this page ).
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Re: Emily
#231940 - 12/15/05 06:57 PM
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Emily H.
Reged: 02/28/05
Posts: 83
Loc: Luxembourg, LU
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Oh, I shouldn't complain too much. Really, it's just one AWFUL experience with excruciating pain/D after eating at an Italian restaurant in Chicago. Put the fear of God into me. But I'm too much of a foodie to stay away for long.
Wow - you really are pretty far north. In the Hundred Mile Wilderness? My fiance is intent on doing the AT and also hiking all of the highest peaks in Maine in the winter (there's a club, apparently), so I have a feeling we'll be up your way someday relatively soon. And I am looking forward to the "first Christmas." His family is fabulous, luckily, and his mom is one of the people I know who suffered from IBS. So they're totally understanding. Relief!
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A completely stress-free life. I wish I could meet that person...Or, well, no, I know how to have such a thing: be a cat. My cats are the most relaxed beings I know.
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Hmm... I could be totally off base here, but don't many people find that if they manage their diet and their stress, that their ibs eventually goes away? I realize this may take years and there's no cure, but this has been the case with both me and my mother. Both of us have been diagnosed with ibs. She is doing fantastic and after four years, I'm doing pretty darn good too (I'm eating popcorn as we speak!) I was always under the impression that if, for whatever reason, the mind-gut dysfunction got better, that perhaps you would too. Thoughts?
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How funny, that's my FAVORITE restaurant. I live about a stone's throw from there! My bff and I go there all the time and we LOVE the soy cheese cake. Have you had it? It's amazing. I daydream about it. Maybe I'll go get a slice right now ...
I definitely don't know any places way the heck up where you are! But yeah, my general rule in NYC restaurants is seek and ye shall find. They are so used to obnoxious, pushy people here with weird diets, that if you just ask very sweetly to leave out the butter or whatever, I've really never encountered an attitude from people. They pretty much just respond to what you put out, you know?
The first six months in NYC can definitely be overwhelming. I've been here since August 2003, and I love it. It really feels like home and I can't stand the idea of not living here anymore. Everything you need is right here. And New Yorkers, in my experience, may be a little rushed and abrupt but are good hearted people. And I like people who tell it like it is!
I haven't had the low fat cookies you're talking about, but I love the vegan cookies from Whole Foods. They have some random Tahini cookies that everyone thinks are gross except for me. They are incredibly filling (sesame paste will do that) but they are super yummy and safe in moderation. But really, the Franchia cheesecake is where it's at. Have you had their iced tea "latte?" Scrumptious. Maybe we should do an NYC get together ...
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Amanda
I live in the Big Apple, but I don't eat the skin
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--------------------
IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!
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That is funny...I have had the cheesecake. Wow. Actually: The first time I ordered from there, I got pumpkin noodles and chocolate cake (I work right down the street). When I ordered, I asked as I always do about whether everything had milk or eggs. Of course, the guy said no. But, it tasted so good when I got it, I had to call back and make sure: I couldn't believe that something so rich was actually safe. Naturally, when I called again, the guy informed me that it's strictly vegan. Yay! I haven't had the iced tea latte yet... Hmm...
Whole foods cookies are pretty yummy. It's probably a good thing that I don't live or work too near to one...
I'm hoping that NYC will feel more "homey" soon - I'm already finding bits of it that I love, I have to admit. Yeah, we should do an NYC (and roundabouts) get together. Imagine unleashing all of us on a restaurant... 
(I was hoping for a "snow day" on Friday...Maybe Tuesday...Silly transit people!)
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