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I should "expect to get worse before I get better?"
      #157966 - 03/07/05 05:08 PM
kshsmom

Reged: 11/20/03
Posts: 677


That's what this lady told me on the phone. I have gotten 3 phone calls from her trying to get me back on Reliv. She told me my bad reaction (D - bloating - cramping etc) was just the toxins leaving my body and I didn't give it a chance to work. That I should expect that kind of pain and rejoice in it. She also told me that colitis and IBS were pretty much the same thing -- she's a registered nurse -- she should know and I'm not -- so what do I know. I told her not everything works for everybody and she said this does.

Am I wrong? Is it supposed to hurt like that? Should I have hung in there through those attacks? To me the attacks have always been the signal that something was bad for my body. I don't know whether to be mad or try yet again. The always desperate to try something - anything to get all the way better plight of the IBS person.

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Heck with that! new
      #157998 - 03/07/05 06:39 PM
atomic rose

Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 7013
Loc: Maine (IBS-A stable since July '05!)

I don't care if that woman is a registered nurse, the shmuck down the street, or god incarnate - IBS and colitis are NOT the same thing, and in my mind, she just blew ANY credibility she could have possibly had with such a stupid statement. Ugh!

Of course she's telling you that you have to get worse before you get better - she wants you to keep buying the product she's pushing. Rejoice in the pain? What kind of new-age flake IS she? Sheesh.

You are not wrong. Trust your gut instinct. If it felt wrong, don't go back to it.

My not-so-humble opinion is that you're much better off managing IBS with diet and soluble fiber/herbal supplements as detailed here on this site. Even my doctor says that's pretty much the only things that will help. Is it a cure? No. Will you ever be "all better" again? No. (And you wouldn't have been even on the Reliv, either - same as everything else, you'd have to keep taking it, but if you ever quit it, I'm sure you'd go right back to where you were, right?) But you can MANAGE the disorder very well this way, with the diet and good, simple, healthy living.

Sorry this is so long and ranty... it just REALLY irks me when something is marketed as a "cure" for IBS, because there is no cure, period. I'd love it if there was, but in the meantime, I just remind myself that I'd rather have IBS than cancer, AIDS, lupus, or a thousand other diseases I could have and don't!

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Re: Heck with that! new
      #158002 - 03/07/05 06:48 PM
retrograde

Reged: 04/15/04
Posts: 1569


Well said Casey

Gosh, that's just INFURIATING!

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Re: I should "expect to get worse before I get better?" new
      #158007 - 03/07/05 07:02 PM
dozyveeny

Reged: 09/26/04
Posts: 273
Loc: UK

Totally agree with everything Casey said. This whole thing about a toxic reaction meaning you are getting better always sounds suspicious to me. I have heard it quite a few times from naturopathic based health practitioners and also read it in books on alternative remedies and I don't find it to be true. When I did a detox a couple of years ago - which made no difference to my IBS, but did help with other issues - I actually worried because I didn't feel "worse" at all, only better! I think if something is hurting you, it probably isn't doing any good (with obvious exceptions like chemotherapy for cancer) and if something makes you feel better it probably is doing you good (with obvious exceptions like taking heroin). It is pretty disgusting that someone with medical qualifications would talk to you like that. You are much more of an expert on your own IBS than anyone else, whatever their qualifications, and I think any good doctor or nurse would acknowledge that.

Hope you are feeling better for stopping taking this stuff - and it's good that you told us about what happened - it will help other people to make their own decision about starting or stopping Reliv.

Josephine

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Re: I should "expect to get worse before I get better?" new
      #158008 - 03/07/05 07:06 PM
Ericasmom

Reged: 04/27/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Arizona

GEEZ-you really have to watch some of those "Health Food" folks. I went into a health food store the other day with disastrous results! The lady told me to eat nothing but brown rice and fibrous veggies. No soluble fibers because they ferment into sugar! Oh Lord-I should have known better! She also reccomended a couple different supplements which are probably wreaking havoc on my insides right now! Man, am I miserable! She sold me a bunch of bunk. I should have known to stick with this plan-it's been around so much longer! Now I have to stick with WHITE bread and rice until my stomach calms down! (sigh!)

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Re: I should "expect to get worse before I get better?" new
      #158017 - 03/07/05 07:36 PM
dozyveeny

Reged: 09/26/04
Posts: 273
Loc: UK

In my experience that is pretty typical of people in the alternative health business - they can actually be even more arrogant than doctors. What really annoys me is that they have a 'one size fits all' approach and take no notice of what one says to them. It's almost as if the value of eating raw vegetables, for example, is a religious belief to them, so mere facts can never change their mind about it and if you disagree you are practically a heretic.

Okay, I know I have probably insulted a lot of people by saying that. Of course I am NOT referring to anyone who posts on this board, as everyone here really knows what it is like to have IBS and, just as important, knows the value of compassion and respect. And there are some NHPs who know this too - the honest ones are actually willing to admit it when they don't know what to do, but there are far too many who just think they know everything.

Rant over. Hope I haven't given anyone indigestion!

Best wishes to all.

Josephine



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Hear hear! new
      #158076 - 03/08/05 01:18 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

Grrr. People like that drive me NUTS!

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Thanks to you all ~ new
      #158114 - 03/08/05 05:27 AM
kshsmom

Reged: 11/20/03
Posts: 677


She just seemed so strong.... and what she was saying was... well like it was fact and not just opinion. I should know better. I've told people those very same things..... I am kind of a shy, quiet person and she just overwhelmed me.

Thanks for setting me straight.

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Re: I should "expect to get worse before I get better?" new
      #158116 - 03/08/05 05:37 AM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

well she was certainly very ignorant to say ibs and colitis were the same thing! thats not right....
however, you are all really slamming naturopathy. speaking as a naturopath and as a person that has undergone care from a naturopath I don't think you are being fair (all of you that slammed naturopathy). You are also all guilty of generalising. Nobody has ever helped me with my IBS as much as a naturopath (which is what inspired me to become one myself). I can certainly vouch for the existance of what is known as a 'healing crisis' (under Herings Law of Cure) having experienced it a number of times. However, I will say this, that it should be brought on by well rounded lifestyle changes NOT one product (Reliv) which is part of the 'quickfix' culture we all live in...Healing crises are made to happen though dietary change, exercise, hot baths etc...
I took heather acacia three times and it made me so ill I stopped because I could tell the difference between a healing crisis and something that simply didn't agree with me. if the reliv was really creating a healing crisis you would have seen it happen a few weeks into the process, not immediately.
this woman was also ignorant with respect to the fact that she says it works for everyone. NOTHING works for everyone. we are all unique. its a good thing you stopped taking it...but please don't slam naturopathy that way...yes, there are a lot of quacks out there, but there are a lot of devoted ones too....and you are not being different from the nurse generalising about the product when you generalise about naturopaths.
stepping down off my soapbox now.
feel better.

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Feel the fear and do it anyway!


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This lady is a multi-level marketing NUT!!! new
      #158118 - 03/08/05 05:40 AM
bamagirl

Reged: 04/02/04
Posts: 1407
Loc: Alabama

I'm watching family get suckered into some of the same junk, and it breaks my heart! If it makes you sick, then your body is telling you NO! These same well-meaning relatives were telling me to do COFFEE enemas!!! The caffiene would "cleanse" me! NOOOOOOO, I'm IBS, caffiene in the rear would send me to the hospital! Be careful and get rid of this NUT!!

Sorry to rant, but MAN oh MAN!!! Money is a powerful incentive, but not the way to gage your health!!

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God is Faithful!

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I wasn't slamming naturopaths... new
      #158119 - 03/08/05 05:42 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

...just that idiot! And I know you can get a healing crisis if you detox a load of stuff that's problematic for you...but what that so-called nurse had said was all nonsense! I think alot of people get bitter about the alternative health business cos they meet so many quacks...I've met good ones as well as quacks so I'm not bitter!

Anyway, you're going to be the most IBS friendly naturopath EVER!

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Healing crisees (sp?) new
      #158121 - 03/08/05 05:46 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

I think (Dalia correct me if I'm wrong) that not all people get the healing crisees (how the heck DO you spell the plural of crisis - is it crisis?) and you only do if you've been eating alot of stuff that is silently poisoning your bod. So with me that was dairy, with Ruchie it was sugar. Even if the stuff you detox on is an IBS trigger for you, it doesn't mean that your body's going to have the reaction!

And then it's usually stuff like cold-symptoms or gas not really horrible symptoms like D!

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I didn't know you were a naturopath! NEAT! new
      #158123 - 03/08/05 05:48 AM
bamagirl

Reged: 04/02/04
Posts: 1407
Loc: Alabama

I must have missed that somewhere! That is so cool! I'm learning a lot about natural treatments, but like you said, any "quick-fix, one-size-fits-all" plan always makes me suspicious, especially if a multi-level marketing scheme is involved.

So, do you mind me asking....am I over-reacting to the coffee enema thing with my relatives? Caffeine is a HUGE trigger for we IBS-types, and I can't imagine that driking my coffee that way every day would be healthful!! I'd value your opinion. Thanks!

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God is Faithful!

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Re: I didn't know you were a naturopath! NEAT! new
      #158125 - 03/08/05 05:57 AM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

noooo you are NOT overreacting....coffee would be awful for you (infact noone should have more then one cup of good coffee a day....) - someone with IBS arrrgggghhhhh...don't do it!!!

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Re: I wasn't slamming naturopaths... new
      #158127 - 03/08/05 05:59 AM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

awww you're so cute...I think I will be pretty good with ibs because I feel the pain dude!! :-) there are plenty of quacks out there and I want to kill them! (ooohhhh feeling violent) because they ruin our reputation...they are like 'take ten thousand herbal supplements for 50 dollars each and you will feel better' NOOOOOOOOOOOO

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Yeah, you're gonna be fighting for a long time... new
      #158128 - 03/08/05 06:01 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

...to NOT get lumped in with the quacks - more regulation PLEASE!

I figure that if someone's asking for alot of money without giving alot of information to show their knowledge then they're likely to be quacks...Heather gives all her diet info away for free here, unlike some people who say "yes, I've cured my IBS and if you pay me $100 I'll tell you how". Grrr.

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Re: Healing crisees (sp?) new
      #158129 - 03/08/05 06:02 AM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

yes how do you spell it ? lets see - crises? not sure...oh well
actually it can include D...not watery bacteria type D but certainly sloppy smelly poos and lots of nausea etc...really its a return of your chronic symptoms in an acute state...so with me...it was C followed by sloppy poos and terrible nausea, acne, mucuous, headaches and sluggishness...lovely experience. but I just sat there and told myself it was positive and I got through because I knew I had been working towards it...but it you generally feel under the weather...
XXXXXXX

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Re: Yeah, you're gonna be fighting for a long time... new
      #158130 - 03/08/05 06:03 AM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

hahahahha yeah, there are loads of people like that on the internet...i think these are people who have not become naturopaths for the right reasons - many of us do it because we have had a chronic problem and want to help others...others do it for the money....how horrible can you get?

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Generally under the weather... new
      #158131 - 03/08/05 06:04 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

...not ILL, was kinda the point I was trying (and failing ) to make!

When I came off dairy I had the whole bunged up sinuses and tiredness thing. Caffeine was headaches and tiredness. Haven't done sugar yet...not sure I can cope with that one!

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I've been comparing every to Heather VV... new
      #158132 - 03/08/05 06:06 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

...and if they're not up to her standards of caring then I want to know why!

I've found a clinic for my Fibro that I'm thinking of going to and they've been great, sending me an info pack and talking about treatment options ALREADY. So I like them. If they had a majic carpet to the door, I'd be there already!

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Re: Generally under the weather... new
      #158156 - 03/08/05 07:05 AM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

yep sugar is def the hardest methinks (I was an ADDICT) but soooo worth it..its hard to describe how amazing it is to be off it...you FLY!!! let me know if you want help doing it...I have been through it and so has Ruchie and we are both very inspired by it!! :-) good luck at the clinic...

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Thanks Dalia new
      #158157 - 03/08/05 07:07 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

I'm slowly getting better at the sugar...I've almost completely stopped relying on it and hardly ever OD on it now. Cutting it uot completely will probably hve to wait until I've got more time and money to devote to my diet...if I ever do!

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I wasn't slamming naturopathy either --- new
      #158167 - 03/08/05 07:21 AM
kshsmom

Reged: 11/20/03
Posts: 677


it was just the way she presented it and the way my symptoms happened.... what I said here was a long story made short. I am so sorry if I offended you.

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I think Dalia was referring to some of the responses.. new
      #158168 - 03/08/05 07:22 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

...not you anyway!

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Re: I wasn't slamming naturopathy either --- new
      #158181 - 03/08/05 08:07 AM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

hey I wasn't talking about you! don't worry...was talking about some of the responses!! you were right to think that woman was an arrogant idiot...she was!!

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Re: Thanks Dalia new
      #158183 - 03/08/05 08:10 AM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

hey sometimes its better to take it step by step and then you will have less extreme withdrawal symptoms too...but do keep in mind that sugar reduces the efficiency of your immune system function by about 75% in the average person...vital info for a fibroperson...:-) so keep it as a long term goal to reduce it even further methinks....(I used to have cans and cans of coke, black coffee with sugar, three chocolate bars a day, cookies etc...so I KNOW what it is to give it up...I did it cold turkey and BOY was that a challenge...felt positively fluey for a while!!)

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Dalia new
      #158220 - 03/08/05 09:10 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

What do you have as "treats"? I've already switched fruit for most of my sweet treats...that's ok, isn't it? Do you have recipes for honey cake and stuff? I could handle that...and the occasional bit of chocolate, but it is occasional anyway!

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Is she a naturopath? new
      #158225 - 03/08/05 09:22 AM
Digby

Reged: 07/31/04
Posts: 453


You said she's a registered nurse. That's a lot different than a naturopath.

Naturopathy can offer healing in ways that western medicine can't. There's a place for both. I've had amazing success with Naturopathic treatments. Finding a Naturopath who has a degree from a reputable university (such as Bastyr in Washington) is very important.


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I don't think so. I started all this because .... new
      #158410 - 03/08/05 02:50 PM
kshsmom

Reged: 11/20/03
Posts: 677


Karen (a person from this board) said that she used to have all this trouble with her IBS and then she took this Reliv and it all went away. She could eat whatever she wanted and had no pain - D - bloating or anything. I was skeptical... but I waited it out -- did some investigating. a few other people from the board tried it. SOme of them had more energy - though they did complain of some start up trouble. I thought I could try. So I asked her about it. She gave me her code and I ordered first just the vitamin - then the vitamin and the fiber.

The vitamin powder was okay if I took a very small dose. But it didn't do anything at that dose. Any higher and I got terrible gas and painful bloating from it. The one time I went up to almost full dose I had a full blown attack. I thought well I'll go back down on that and try a small amount of the fiber. I had a full blown attack then too.

I'm talking the typical IBS attack -- where you are in the bathroom - don't know whether you are going to throw up or have D so you have something to cover both ends. You are so hot you think you are going to need air conditioning installed just for you - in the middle of winter.... This wasn't a mild... I don't feel quite myself sickness with a little bit of D.

I kept trying to adjust the dosage for about 3 months total. (I had spent about 100 or so for 2 canisters of Classic and one of Fiber plus a shaker cup and shipping) Then I gave up and just quit. I threw it away and chalked it up to the school of hard knocks.

Then I get these phone calls from this lady -- who tells me Karen got scared away of selling by hard to please people like me and that she used to read her the nasty e-mails she got sent. That I didn't give it enough of a chance -- that I didn't do it right -- that I should try again -- and harder -- that I should have kept going when it hurt and made me sick because that meant it was working. That I just didn't understand those things because I'm not a nurse.

Sorry to ramble.

Edited by kshsmom (03/08/05 02:51 PM)

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WOW...I took a nap and woke up to find this! new
      #158411 - 03/08/05 02:51 PM
Snow for Sarala

Reged: 03/12/03
Posts: 5430
Loc: West Coast, USA

that lady is a QUACK. Period. A product alone won't change you thoroughly...yikes! Beent here, done that, no thanks!

I agree Linz...Heather rocks! She GENUINELY wants to help people. Anyone can tell she is SINCERE and a smart woman! We need more of her in this world!

Naturopaths. I've been to 2 quacks and 2 wonderful doctors (Dalia is one of them!) There are also quacky allopathic docs out there...think the ones that tell us it's all in our heads!

So how do you know who is who? Do your own research too! If your gut tells a something isn't right...it pobaly isn't right!

Dalia has helped me get off sugar. I feel BLEH right now...but emotionally more stable than perhaps ever in my life! And for the 1st time in my life so far...I am having a normal cold instead of bronchitus/sinusitis under her guidance and my own research! Thank You G-d!

Nothing is perfect. I am def. having detox symsptoms. But I've been feeding my bod sugar forever...and I was on strong antibiotics since I was 2 at least 2x a year...and these past 2 years for a year and a half straight. What do you expect? My bod's a wreck! I know I'm gonna feel better than ever come a couple of months down the road...it is SO worth it!

Ok...phew...done responding now


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Formerly known as Ruchie

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Re: I don't think so. I started all this because .... new
      #158435 - 03/08/05 04:10 PM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

wow this woman sounds AWFUL...you really tried it for a long time...I got the same reaction from the acacia...not knowing whether to throw up or have D and all that pressure in my belly...do NOT go near that stuff again...

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Re: WOW...I took a nap and woke up to find this! new
      #158439 - 03/08/05 04:14 PM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

you are such a cutie!! hugs to you...
its sooo worth giving up sugar...esp for those with health problems...I am currently going through a healing crisis after changing my diet one month ago back to a naturopathic one (I change around - try to experience things myself)...it involves having my chronic ibs symptoms as acute ones - nausea, sweats, pimples, mucous, endless pooing, weakness, etc etc - but my emotional and mental health is sooooo good. I am always willing to help anyone that needs help....

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Dalia new
      #158443 - 03/08/05 04:23 PM
cailin

Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 3563
Loc: Dublin, Ireland

hope you are doing OK, that sounds a bit nasty.
On your advice I am eating brown rice, I like it so much more than white anyway- is the Uncle Bens (not the boil in the bag the box) one OK or do they put bad stuff in it?

I am a little off track with cheating a lot and have put on weight not good in a wedding year, I am going back to the gym next week (DIY has ruled it out lately, even P and I's late night walks have disappeared too since we are so wrecked)

Will start reporting in on the lifestyle board if I don't get the motivation next week!



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S.

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Re: Dalia new
      #158458 - 03/08/05 05:15 PM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

hey beautiful bride!!
did you get my email? I sent you one today finally...sorry its been so long - parents visit and then nausea etc...fun fun fun :-)
I have to check the uncle bens next time I go to the shop..but ideally I would recommend choosing a brown rice that is organic if you can afford it..I have a feeling the uncle bens may not be as nutritious...I'll check it out. but good for you for going brown! how is belly liking it? the higher fibre you eat the less weight you'll put on by the way.
don't worry about the weight gain - it'll drop off..ALL brides lose weight from the adrenaline..whether or not they intend to..plus, you were tiny when I saw you - gorgeous figure - it'll drop off.
Love you XXXX

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Feel the fear and do it anyway!


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Re: Dalia ... (LONG) new
      #158461 - 03/08/05 05:32 PM
dozyveeny

Reged: 09/26/04
Posts: 273
Loc: UK

... I didn't know you were a naturopath either! - but I do know that lots of people on the board are very interested in alternative medicine - myself included - that's why I tried to make it clear that I wasn't taking shots at anyone here. Lucky the patient with IBS who comes to you for help - not only do you have firsthand experience, you definitely have the compassion, honesty and respect that I mentioned in my post. I think those are essential qualities for anyone working in health, whether conventional or alternative.

Anyway, I've just come on the board and noticed how this thread has grown and I feel I'd better reply, as I may be the person that you thought was "guilty of generalising" and "slamming" naturopathy.

First, I probably shouldn't have mentioned naturopathy at all as it's clear that the person that phoned 'kshsmom' (sorry, I don't know her name) was not a naturopath at all but actually an orthodox (allopathic) nurse, but I recognised that the argument she was using is based on the naturopathic tradition. I'm sorry if I caused confusion there - I should have taken a bit longer to write the post and made myself clearer. However, while the nurse was misusing the whole idea - I think we agree on that - I also feel that the idea itself is open to question.

Secondly, I don't think I was actually slamming naturopathy at all - if you look at what I wrote, I was criticising the attitude of NHPs who are arrogant and dogmatic, but also saying that there are NHPs who are not like that. I could have added that exactly the same is true for conventional doctors - I've encountered a few of them too! - but I think that many people who won't accept poor treatment from a conventional doctor are still willing to take it from alternative therapists, because of the mystique surrounding such treatments. The concept of the healing crisis can easily be used as part of that mystique, as a way of silencing a patient's valid questions about their experience.

Thirdly, I am sceptical about the idea of the healing crisis. As I understand it (you must know much more about it than I do) the theory is that a patient becomes ill because their body is overloaded with toxins and unable to function naturally. Detoxing gives them a chance to reduce the overload by encouraging the three organs of excretion (liver, bowels and skin) to work more effectively, but this also causes the temporary symptoms known as the healing crisis. I think - I'm not sure about this - the model for this theory is when someone has an infection, runs a fever, has a headache, etc, all of which is proof that the body's immune system is fighting the infection. Naturopaths argue that all disease can be dealt with in the same way, by provoking a healing crisis and arousing the body's natural defence mechanisms. (I'm sure I haven't put this right - it's quite a while since I read up on it.)

Well, I have two problems with that. The first is that while it is quite easy to provoke the symptoms usually labelled 'healing crisis', I'm not convinced this actually has anything to do with healing. Just over three years ago I did a detox, hoping to improve my IBS symptoms. What happened was that I stopped having migraines. I have had only one bad and one mild one since then, previously I had had been having three or four a month for about ten years. A great result and proof that detoxing can be very effective. I have since learned (from a conventional doctor) that I have a condition that affects the functioning of the liver. It makes perfect sense to me that my liver had become overloaded and the detox gave it a chance to clear the backlog - I must have been excreting toxins like crazy! - but there was no sign whatever of a healing crisis - I felt pretty good throughout the detox and afterwards. While, at other times, I've had all the classic signs of a healing crisis without getting any better as a result. So I do question the connection between the 'crisis' and 'healing'.

Of course, my IBS symptoms remained exactly the same. And that's my second problem - I don't think these types of treatment can help with IBS anyway - I just don't see any connection between toxic overload and an abnormal gastrocolic reaction. Most of us on the board have other health issues apart from IBS, some of them might well be helped by naturopathic treatments, but I think we should be careful about things that will do little for our IBS or even make it worse. And I think some people might easily mistake worsened symptoms for the 'healing crisis' they've been told to expect, which is what the nurse was telling kshsmom ...

Well, this is where we came in ... I am sorry that my short and hastily written post caused so much trouble and I hope that this long and very slowly written one will help to put it right!

If you are not too exhausted from reading this, I would dearly love to know what you think - in case you haven't guessed, these issues really interest me.

I think you have been very fortunate to have had your IBS improved by naturopathic treatment. The recommendations I received (I haven't tried them all) ran counter to Heather's guidelines. They included fasting, taking courses of vegetable juice, eating 75% raw food, liver flushing, bowel cleansing, colonic irrigation and taking large quantities of supplements (which passed right through me). I would be interested to know what naturopathic treatments you have found helpful, although I realise that doesn't necessarily mean they would help me too.

Best wishes,

Josephine



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Re: kshsmom new
      #158466 - 03/08/05 05:44 PM
dozyveeny

Reged: 09/26/04
Posts: 273
Loc: UK

I'm sorry that my post earlier has stirred things up so much - I don't think anyone was annoyed by what you wrote, it was my post that upset them. I actually meant to be supportive of your decision, not to take things off-track or cause trouble!

I think it was right that you told us about your experience - people may do searches for Reliv in the future and they ought to know know how badly you were treated ...

Hope you are feeling better now and not stressed out by the way this thread went.

Best wishes,

Josephine

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Nonsense! new
      #158548 - 03/09/05 01:20 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

Grr. What a BULLY! Poor you...no-one should be allowed to harass ANYONE like that, but especially not sick people.

Glad you decided to stop it! There is NO wonder cure for IBS - the nearest I've found is a SFS and this diet. Anyone who takes one thing and their IBS goes away obviously doesn't have very severe IBS at ALL!

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Eeek! Don't worry. new
      #158549 - 03/09/05 01:22 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

I totally understand that it's easy to become a bit bitter about the health food industry - people like this so-called nurse don't exactly help! There are some GREAT alternative health practitioners out there...but even the best ones don't have ALL the answers. I really wish there was more legislation to get rid of the worst of the quacks. Preying on ill people is just SICK!

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Just a note here... new
      #158550 - 03/09/05 01:25 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

...in case people find this in a search (hope you don't mind Dalia)...Acaia is great for a lot of people, but like with everything to do with IBS, some people (like Dalia) just can't tolerate it. It happens. Doesn't mean it's a bad product or anything, just something to keep in mind if you give it a good try and it makes you worse.

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I think Dalia... new
      #158551 - 03/09/05 01:27 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

...did use this diet to help her stabilise...it was just Acacia that she had a bad reaction to. I know Ruchie follows naturopathic guidelines, but tries to do so IBS-safely.

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Re: Eeek! Don't worry. new
      #158562 - 03/09/05 02:01 AM
dozyveeny

Reged: 09/26/04
Posts: 273
Loc: UK

Thanks for your input, Linz, this is a pretty complicated subject and I could actually have written a lot more - both good and bad - but I think I've said enough!

Josephine

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Re: WOW...I took a nap and woke up to find this! new
      #158569 - 03/09/05 02:14 AM
dozyveeny

Reged: 09/26/04
Posts: 273
Loc: UK

Dalia, I'm sorry to hear that you are feeling so rough right now. It's really lousy to have symptoms like that, whatever the cause. I understand if you don't feel like taking this any further and I just hope this discussion didn't make you feel worse.

BTW I've always really enjoyed reading your posts - I have quite a clear idea of what you are like as a person and I'd like to think that if we ever met we would be friends! I have a longstanding interest in holistic medicine and thought about training as a homeopath at one time ... my whole family has experience of naturopathy going back to the 1930s ... I don't mean to express hostility, just healthy scepticism!

Hope you are feeling better soon!

Best wishes

Josephine

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That's a good point about Reliv searches new
      #158655 - 03/09/05 07:06 AM
kshsmom

Reged: 11/20/03
Posts: 677


I remember doing them myself. This whole post and all the responses has taught me a lot about many things I didn't expect.

I do feel better about my decision. Thank you. Best wishes to you as well.

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Re: Just a note here... new
      #158657 - 03/09/05 07:11 AM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

absolutely agree....acacia has really helped a lot of people...there is no miracle cure...we all have ibs for different reasons so different things are going to work for all of us...the only thing we can do is keep trying...

--------------------
Feel the fear and do it anyway!


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Re: I think Dalia... new
      #158659 - 03/09/05 07:14 AM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

the truth is I tried this diet for 6 months and it did not help me to stabilise...I gave it 6 months...I actually became more malnourished as a result...but thats just me! we have to keep in mind that we are ALL individuals....different things work for all of us. I love Heather and her site...she is a truly good woman who cares for others and I think that is hard to find these days - people that don't want to profit from others misfortune....

--------------------
Feel the fear and do it anyway!


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My experience with Reliv new
      #158660 - 03/09/05 07:14 AM
Augie

Reged: 10/27/04
Posts: 5807
Loc: Illinois

I too was going to order this very expensive product from Karen. I trusted her because she was from the boards. Well, she pushed and pushed and also emailed me stories of how she could now eat anything she wanted: ice cream, fried french fries and McDonalds Big Macs,....anything. She said that she had started it out of desperation after living with some nurse who put her on it. I thought I had found my miracle for IBS. Karen told me that she no longer had any problems and that she was "Happy as a Clam" now that she could eat anything and had no IBS symptoms at all.

When I hadn't ordered her products, she then forwarded my email address to another distributor (in hopes of gettin more testimonial and assurance) who gave me the same stories and that if I didn't want to order from Karen that she would be my distributor (nice of her to try and steal a customer from Karen, huh).

I am glad now that I didn't spend the 100 dollars that I never really had. Yet, I still wonder if I gave up my chance for a possible cure because I didn't have the money. I still wonder if maybe there may be some validity to Karen's story. I would hate to think that she was just a plant on the boards who used this web site to sell her product. I wonder if she really is well from her IBS and can eat anything she wants. I am still tempted to try this, as I would pay anything or do anything for the freedom of my pain and symptoms permanently and to be able to eat anything I wanted!

--------------------
~ Beth
Constipation, pain prodominent,cramps, spasms and bloat!

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Unlikely Beth! new
      #158662 - 03/09/05 07:20 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

I'd give it a try if I thought it was credible but it is definitely NOT! Anyone whose IBS can be managed using just one product doesn't have severe IBS at all!

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Re: Dalia ... (LONG) new
      #158690 - 03/09/05 08:30 AM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

Hey there
I wanted to start by saying that when I said 'slamming' naturopathy, I wasn't personally offended! :-)I agree wholeheartedly that the nurse was misusing the idea of 'healing crisis' for her own benefit and I think thats sick. I also want to apologise because I read your post very quickly and didn't see enough to register that you did say that there are decent ones out there. Sorry!
I will absolutely agree that 'healing' crisis is a vague term in the sense that the symptoms can be the same as the ones a person was experiencing originially. HOWEVER there is a difference, and if you have been through one, you KNOW its different. let me give myself as an example: when I would get an IBS 'attack' (I don't believe its an attack, I believe its our body being intelligent and expelling and expressing that which is not good) I would feel nauseous and have D or C and it would be over in about 3 hours. My mental health would be awful, I would cry and be soooo fed up and uninspired by life. 'why does this happen to me etc?'. Self pity. A healing crisis, symptom wise, goes on for longer!!! My current one, this week (I came off heathers diet a month ago and put myself back on a naturopathic one) lasted intensley for about 48 hours and 24 hours on each side of coming into it and going out. There is a huge distinct difference. Whilst you feel like you've got the flu (yuck), there is an overwhelming feeling of mental inspiration, focusness, happiness and as each sweat happens, or poo happens, you feel cleaner and cleaner. You just KNOW its a good thing. I have had four healing crises in my life and I have always been aware of them. I am a person that is terrified of throwing up so IBS attacks scare me with the nausea, but during the nausea (which is constant for 48 hours of a healing crisis) I am very very calm. Its just different. Hard to explain.
Now, as for the theory behind it. You can google it and get a lot of explanations that will be better written then mine but basically: when something starts to bother our bodies, lets say when I was 14 a year before I developed IBS, I got a lot of acne on my back, we supress it with drugs or ignore it as a problem on its own and don't ask ourselves WHY is our body expressing itself in that way??? So I surpressed it with acne cream...lo and behold a few months later I start to feel sick...IBS entered my life. I had a terrible diet growing up and I KNOW this caused nutritional deficiencies which caused the malfunction of my nervous system to create IBS. I am convinced. IBS does not exist in indigenous people living in traditional ways. So all these years I have been carrying around excess poo, because I am usually a C, but even when it moves to D, its doesn't expel everything. We should all ideally poo 3 times a day...I know I have only ever reached that amount on a naturopathic diet. Western doctors say once a day is fine, or even less, and that is absurd. Any studies that have been done of indigenous tribes show that they lack the bowel disorders we have in the west and they all poo 3 times a day, after meals. So as the years passed, the waste material ie toxins built up in my gut. Yuck. Making me sluggish, overworked liver, kidneys, adrenals - everything. When I turn this around by eating a diet and establishing a lifestyle conducive with rebalancing my body, its evident that it is going to take lots of time and hard work to get it back. Even years possibly. Its also evident that its not going to be pleasant. There are wonderful feelings of having a clearer head, BUT pooing out years worth of waste does NOT feel good. What happens is that the body sees you are suddenly taking in waaaaay better nutrition, you are exercising and relaxing more, thinking better thoughts. Your immune system has a list of priorities...usually its busy trying to cope with the constant toxins floating around in the system because of the excess waste hanging around (in my case) - a chronic problem. When I take away its need to be working so hard on a chronic problem (because I am no longer perpetuating it on a daily basis) and give it the tools (higher minerals and vitamins and greater nutrition) to work even better...it reaches the point that it feels strong enough to flush the system. A healing crisis always always always occurs straight after a period where you feel AMAZING!!! Just last week I was on a ball!! I had so much energy, clear skin, amazing moods and BOOM...healing crisis. The body finds strength and trusts its own intelligence enough to make this the time to clean. This is a healing crisis. This will never occur until the body has enough tools to make it happen well...and these tools include the mental strength and commitment - the body is way more intelligent then we give it credit for. Why do we always look forward to a holiday and then as soon as we relax on the beach we get sick? I have so many friends this happens to. Because we finally relax enough to let the body take care of crap inside instead of running on adrenaline all the time.
When you say you did a detox on your liver - how long was it for? what kind of detox was it?
I absolutely agree that people with IBS should be very very careful when embarking on a new program. IBS is a nervous dysfuction of the colon. What causes nervous dysfuntion? it doesn't JUST happen...mineral and nutritional deficiencies make nervous dysfunction happen - either through when we were in the womb and our mothers weren't eating well enough for the years before she gave birth OR through our childhood and adulthood. We are ALL very different in our requirements for different minerals...some people need WAY less calcium for example, then others, because of the way they are so efficient at absorbing it etc. A lifestyle that contributes to rebalancing is very time consuming and lots of hard work and one needs to focus on the long term benefits.
I am a purist in the sense that I don't believe in colon flushes, or huge concentrations of supplements etc. I only eat at the most 50% raw. There are no miracle cures. We have to eat wholesome organic diets of foods that we have made from scratch, exercise, sleep enough, do yoga, think positive, surround ourselves with love (and love ourselves) in order to get better. Anything less is just not going to do it. For example, I don't believe in these 3 day detoxes that people do and they expect that to cure them...there is no such thing. WE have to change ourselves for LIFE to achieve true good health. And a healing crisis is definetly part of that. An athelete suffers to build muscle and become the top of his league. A mother suffers in order to push out a baby...creation of new things in life and embarking on new paths is NEVER easy...and its too bad that modern medicine is so obsessed with providing people with the quick fix of drugs to take down a fever etc when all the body is trying to do is express itself and say 'slow down and give me some attention'. ALL of us can look back on when our IBS started and link it to either a stressful time, or a bad lifestyle etc..it never just 'happened'. I truly believe that.
Hope that wasn't too waffly....

--------------------
Feel the fear and do it anyway!


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Re: WOW...I took a nap and woke up to find this! new
      #158693 - 03/09/05 08:33 AM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

you are so cute...:-) I would love to meet you one day :-)
Healthy skeptisism is wonderful...i am probably the biggest skeptic in my naturopathy classes because I am a very scientific mind and I like it all to add up. You must always be true to your thoughts and doubts and express them...that makes us grow as people....XXXX I am feeling much better today, thank you...all my pimples disappeared overnight! :-) The body is an amazing thing..

--------------------
Feel the fear and do it anyway!


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Wow Dalia! new
      #158696 - 03/09/05 08:41 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

That's interesting what you said about how many times a day we should poop! Since I've been making an effort to eat more fruit and veg and get some more IF, I've been pooping about 3 times a day and have been worrying that this was too often and I was going to go into an IBS crisis! Yay, I'm doing ok! Animals also poop alot more btw! Never thought much about that before.

Not sure I agree on the IBS and mineral deficiency thing...but then I basically got IBS b/c I have Fibro...which I'm sure I got from my Mum...and one problem with Fibro is deficiencies in some vitamins and minerals (science is not sure which is the cause and which is the effect tho!)...so I guess that theory does actually work for me!

I'm gonna try and limit my sugar consumption further...do you find my post in the LivingRoom? Questions, questions, questions!

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Re: Wow Dalia! new
      #158700 - 03/09/05 09:06 AM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

hey Linz! 3 times a day is excellent esp if it is formed nicely too! I am still trying to get there you are very inspiring! I want your pooo! hahahahahha
in all likelihood you could have inherited from your mum the susceptibility to expressing deficiencies over a long period as fibro...I have an interesting study about it..I will try and scan it later and if I do will ask for your email and send it over...I absolutely believe that we all have different ways of expressing imbalances (acne, ibs, fibro, backpain, arthititis, diabetes etc) and the source remains the same for all of them - we are missing something. its sooo much better to treat the cause not the symptoms....which is what ruchie is doing and she is sooo inspiring because it is not easy.
oh, you posted about sweet stuff yesterday and I didn't answer - on teh rare times I bake somethign I use concentrated pear juice or maple syrup (very low glycaemic index) and I eat 3 pieces of fruit a day and one glass of freshly pressed apple juice...that hits the spot for me! (I have a very sweet tooth). If I ever taste anything with sugar inside it is always too sickly sweet now. Take faith that your taste buds will adapt in the most beautiful way!!

--------------------
Feel the fear and do it anyway!


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Question for Miss Dalia new
      #158711 - 03/09/05 09:28 AM
Snow for Sarala

Reged: 03/12/03
Posts: 5430
Loc: West Coast, USA

Is it possible that I need ZERO sugar in my diet?

ok...kinda graphic...sorry...but I often feel yeast in my vaginal area when I eat things with sugar (is this weird or what?!)

I put tomatoes back in my diet...might that be the cuplrit? It's sooo weird to eat something and begin to itch there while you're eating it! (Is it jus in my head? I must say I don't believe that it is....)

Is soy yogurt ok? i can't find any without some sugar added. Usually it is fruit sugar or evaporated cane juice or something like that. What's your opinion doc?

I gained my 5lbs back! when do you think I'll be ready to begin counting calories? Could it be the tomato that did it? I am beginning to think tomatoes are bad for me They're my fav food! *sigh* I will do what is best for my bod!

Thanks for reading! *hugs* Glad you feel better today Daia!

--------------------
Formerly known as Ruchie

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Linz,, I'm glad you and Dalia hooked up! n-t new
      #158717 - 03/09/05 09:40 AM
Snow for Sarala

Reged: 03/12/03
Posts: 5430
Loc: West Coast, USA



--------------------
Formerly known as Ruchie

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Thanks Dalia! new
      #158718 - 03/09/05 09:42 AM
Linz

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England

That'd be great...I'm always open to new info. I was just wondering about honey cakes cos I do sometimes bake brownies or something, usually when we have company, and it's nice to be able to partake!

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Re: Question for Miss Dalia new
      #158852 - 03/09/05 02:52 PM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

hey dolly
for now I would stick to zero sugar...when you start to feel fabulous constantly...like three months of fabulousness then you can introduce it as a special treat...I was completely sugar free for three years and now I have a little maple syrup on my oatmeal now and again and a slice of cake (safe ingredients...) once every month or something. its important we enjoy eating,..but for now focus on getting better which you are doing soooo well.
if you have a suspicion about tomatoes, and if they are your favourite food...stay away!! often we love those things that hurt us the most!! you are very sensntive at the moment so it is possible that when you eat something sugary it gives you excess yeast...trust your instinct...you are so in tune with your body its fab...don't worry about it 'being in your head' - err on the side of caution that its not and then when you reintroduce tomatoes and they agree with you, it will be a nice surprise.
I am feeling much better thanks..a little on the fuzzy side and lots of sweat (ewwwww) but much better...less nauseaous and less pooing! never thought I could make so much :-)
what are you eating every day that you should be even concerned about calories? you are exercising right? I don't really believe in counting calories that much (what a traditional nutritionist I am going to be hahahahahaha) but let me know your thinking and I will tell you what I think
Love you XXXXX

--------------------
Feel the fear and do it anyway!


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Re: Thanks Dalia! new
      #158854 - 03/09/05 02:53 PM
daliatree

Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 1176
Loc: Manhattan, New York

I think its very important to partake...just as long as there is self control and its only once in a while...the social aspect of ibs is the hardest methinks sometimes...as long as the rest of the diet is in tip top shape a piece of cake is not going to tip the balance now and again :-)


--------------------
Feel the fear and do it anyway!


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