Londoner's (Linz)
#198070 - 07/21/05 06:37 AM
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TommyNY
Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 1530
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Are you guys ok? I cannot believe this has happened so quickly afte rteh first time. I am so angry right now. Let us know if you are ok.
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Just talked to the bf and it seems very minor compared to 7/7. No serious injuries reported. This $h!t really gets me angry.
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Amanda
I live in the Big Apple, but I don't eat the skin
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I have some of my own ideas of how to handle this. I am glad your BF is ok. I am just so incensed. This needs to be dealt with equal force. No more pussyfooting around and trying not to hurt people's feelins. There are lives at stake here.
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I agree, Tommy. Sometimes the 'good guys' are just too good. I'm watching CNN and waiting for Tony Blair to talk.
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Carol
nós somos o que nós somos e o descanso é merda
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Uh-oh, what happened???? I didn't have the tv or radio on this morning????
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Taking it one day at a time.....
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Some minor bombings in London in the undeground and a bus. No fatalities
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Why are they focusing on London? This is awful!!! I'm glad to hear no one died but ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!! When is it going to end??
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Taking it one day at a time.....
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Lets be honest, there are TONS of radical Islamic fundamentalists in LOndon and Europe in general. Something needs to be done and soon.
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IMO, the respected, main-steam Islamic clerics need to forcefully and vocally denounce this kind of violence. There are radical sects that preach that the only way into heaven is to kill all the nonbelievers. This is a corruption of Islam and not the true teaching. I don't know, the whole thing just really upsets me.
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Amanda
I live in the Big Apple, but I don't eat the skin
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DITTO, on that one Panda. I agree
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I can't even find words to talk about it really. Anger probably works. We are lucky to not be directly affected here in Chicago, but we could be, you know? (And you in NY, obviously!!). I agree with you about denouncing the violence. I mean, who else can get through to these people? Apparently, death as a consequence means nothing to them. And if life isn't valuable, what is? 
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yep tommy - they are EVERYWHERE and its scary. they built a mosque around the corner from my parents house and suddenly the whole area is full of them. on 9/11 they were handing out celebratory leaflets with pictures of the burning towers. it is sickening. the liberal law in england is tooo kind - they get money, cars and houses from the social security. Grrrrrr.
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Feel the fear and do it anyway!
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"Anyone can exercise, but this kind of lethargy takes real discipline." -Garfield
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don't get me started. I can comment on that offline. Lets just pray that things dont get worse.
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I'm ok!
#198223 - 07/21/05 11:18 AM
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Linz
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England
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Thanks for thinking about me everyone. I just can't believe this has happened. I was reading in the paper only his morning about the last dead person id'ed from the King's Cross blast - an Afghan student whose parents had been killed by the Taliban and who had fled here for safety.  They should NOT be doing this to us.
I'm not shocked today, I'm just so sad.
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that this doesn't surprise us anymore, isn't it. Really says something about the state of the world.
Glad your okay, Linz.
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~ Beth
Constipation, pain prodominent,cramps, spasms and bloat!
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Its about time. I applaud that
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I made my constitutional law professor very uncomfortable during my first year of law school when I said I'd much rather have my arab-american brothers locked up all day on unproven charges than blown up in a building. My older brother worked in the world financial building (part of the WTC complex) on 9/11 and was deeply affected. You better believe I'd rather have his constitutional rights violated (and mine) than risk losing him or anyone else. I'm generally a libertarian but when you have nothing to hide, searches shouldn't be a problem.
On that note, I was actually asked to step aside during the carryon baggage check on my way back from Montreal. I'd been selected to have my belongings thoroughly searched. She went into everything, including my makeup pouch and every little container. I stood pleasantly and didn't say a word, as she kept on apologzing for having to do this. She asked where I was from and I said New York. She said ah, so you understand. I wish I didn't have to understand so much, but there is nothing wrong to consenting to a small invasion of privacy (which is not, contrary to popular belief, a constitutional right), for the sake of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
I hate this though, and I feel so vulneralbe, like noplace is safe.
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Amanda
I live in the Big Apple, but I don't eat the skin
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I am still shocked that London has been targeted again and realyl hope this ends soon but I don't see how that will happen.
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I agree with everything you said Panda. I worked only a few blocks away from the WTC site on 9/11. WHen I brought Tina to Ground Zero and started explaining things to her, I began to cry. I am still deeply affected by it. I however, refuse to be afraid. There is no "safe" place anymore but we can fight back. We have to realize we our soldiers too and be more vigilant and not bury our heads in the sand. This is a World War, NY, Bali, Madrid, London, Kenya...
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...and the only objection I have to compulsory id cards in this country is that it sounds like we're gonna have to pay through the nose for them and Si and I are always broke.
I don't agree with the imprisonments without a trial...but I think they could be avoided if everyone gave up a small part of their civil liberties and we had loads of searches etc. I don't mind that AT ALL.
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...what with the Blitz and the IRA (it's like the city and country has a memory beyond that of it's citizens). We get very stoic. They are NOT going to terrorise us.
Quote:
"We will prevail...they will not." Tony Blair
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Linz -- I am so glad you are alright. I can't believe this is happening. Adrian used to get off really often at Oval station when he would go to work. How absolutely terrifying.
**huge hugs**
--Steph
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~~I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell-I know right now you can't tell~~Matchbox 20
IBS-D,pain.
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Hang on guys!
#198305 - 07/21/05 03:53 PM
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Linz
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England
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Muslims are getting killed in this country. It's been a while since the radicals were allowed to preach openly. And many of the bombers were 2nd or 3rd generation Brits, not recent immigrants.
I love my country and one of the great things about it is it's multiculturalism and liberalism. I don't want to allow the terrorists to divide this country...and I don't think they will.
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But the Brit bombers seemed to be a bunch of typically angry young men who had just picked this cause to expend their anger and guilt on...and had been worked on. Testosterone has a lot to answer for IMO! It's makes these young men far too susceptible to evil being whispered in their ear.
LOADS of the Muslim leaders in this country have been condemning all this...but there're always more out East or in secret that won't.
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Quote:
I don't agree with the imprisonments without a trial...but I think they could be avoided if everyone gave up a small part of their civil liberties and we had loads of searches etc. I don't mind that AT ALL.
I dunno Linz. Obviously nobody likes the idea of imprisonment without a trial, but avoiding such things might not be a luxury we can afford during wartime. Like me, my brothers are Arab-American, and they look it. As two Middle-Eastern-looking men in their late 20s/ early 30's, they fit the profile. As I've said a thousand times, I'd rather have them locked up without a trial than blown up in a building. It's an awful situation either way, but I'd accept even a substantial violation of civil rights if it means everyone is safer. This is consistent with American jurisprudence on this topic. Years after WWII, a Japanese-American man brought a case against the federal gov based on his confinment to an internment camp in the West (I'm assuming everyone is familiar with that history). The Supreme Court found for the government, saying even imprisonment of American citizens, even those born here, based solely on their ancestral nationality, was acceptable during war time. Such racial discrimination is traditionally subject to "strict scrutiny," which basically means the goverment has to have a compelling reason for the discrimination, and that the discriminatory practice must be substanially linked to the cause it intends to serve.
The cops here in NYC are searching randomly, which means blonde teenage girls are getting searched, even though they are unlikely to have bombs strapped to them. Concern for political correctness is discouraging the police from racial profiling, but, I imagine, such a practice would ultimately be upheld by the Supreme Court. Nobody is insinuating that all Arabs are terrorists ... but heretofore, most of the terrorists have been Arabs. Wouldn't it be more efficient to search the people who are similar to all the previous perpetrators? To my mind, the answer is yes, even if that means my brothers are subject to closer inspection than my blonde friends.
I hope I haven't offended anyone with my opinions, which is all this post is. As an Arab-American of mixed Jewish and Christian descent living in NYC, I think I'm in a pretty good position to speak for the people whose civil rights may be limited.
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Amanda
I live in the Big Apple, but I don't eat the skin
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...and as they were saying on the beeb this lunchtime, if they only check young Arab males, the terrorists will find a way (threats, brainwashing or duping) to get bombs on blonde women! Gotta think beyond today.
And I object to any insult to our democracy like imprisonment w/out trial. These terrorists want to change my country from the liberal accepting place it is - why the hell should we help them do so!
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Both good points, Linz. I enjoy sparring with you. I agree that only looking at those who fit the profile means that "unusual" perps can slip through the cracks. That's a practical argument against profiling that I can accept. What I can't accept are the PC arguments, because they just don't make sense to me.
As for helping them change your country, I agree there too. There aren't any solid answers. But I think in war time, which this is, we are called on to give up a lot of freedom for the sake of security. That's why the supreme court applies strict scrutiny to this kind of thing, and demands that the government show a darn good reason for suspending a person's freedom without a trial. It's a policy that should not be abused, but it should also not be eliminated, IMO.
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Amanda
I live in the Big Apple, but I don't eat the skin
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Very interesting debate ladies. I happen to side with the wartime mentality at this point. I do believe this is WWIII. Whether anyone else wants to agree with me on that is a different story. I think we are facing a brutal enemy who will do whatever it takes to shake our will and expose our fears and weaknesses. There is no doubt in my mind that their ultimate goal is to control Saudi oil (Al Qaeda hates the monarchy) and to control Pakistan for their nukes. These people must be fought head on. When the FBI was trying to bring down organized crime, do you think they targeted people named O'Reilly or Murphy? No, they targeted Gotti, Columbo and names like that. I am half Italian and I understand why they went after Italians because that is who the mobsters are! Fact is, the terrorists of of Arabic descent. Thatis who they should target. And may I just reiterate, we need the good Muslims to filter out the evil ones. Hands down, that is what is needed.
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I'm hoping that the 7/7 bombings really shook our Muslim community up so they'll be alot more suspicious of people around them - some of the bomber's families were totally shocked! 
One, I don't want any aparteid in London and two, the head honcho terrorists are evil but clever people and if the search net is too specific they'll get round it. Don't want that to happen.  And anyway, you get Muslims of more than one colour - one of the LOndon bombers was black, not Arab.
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Hey Guys,
Sorry this post is so late but I'm glad to read that everyone is ok. This is so terrible that I just don't know what to think. I just wanted to say how sorry I am to everyone who's going through this right now.
Kelly
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I don't think there's anyway that we can attribute a unified goal to Al Queda and other terrorist activities. There are too many individual groups acting of their own accord, or taking what they think to be the ideas of Al Queda and acting upon those. I think in many cases the terrorists just want to hurt westerners for the sake of hurting them, and expressing their frustrations, not for any larger purpose.
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I agree Linz. Plus I do think we have pretty much created the problem ourselves with recent uncalled for wars. Violence only creates more violence and people certainly shouldn't be labelled as terrorists simply because of their religion.
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Post deleted by Cara4503
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~Cara~
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Don't wanna start a fight.
In my opinion, the latest Iraq war certainly didn't help the worldwide terror situation, but there was alot of reasons behind it. And the bad situation with the Middle East vs western capitalism goes back such a long way, you can't say "this started it". Okay, well maybe the Crusades started it.
Anyway, shall we all just agree that the terrorists are very bad people?
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I agree
#198836 - 07/23/05 02:00 PM
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TommyNY
Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 1530
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I was going to unload when I first read that post. I work around the block from the World Trade Ctr. I wrote a scathing reply and then deleted the post. I am not going to get into a war of words. Linz, you have a good idea. Lets just leave this be for now.
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I don't want to start a big fight - and I agree with what you said...I just get so frustrated with people bashing our government and the decisions made. Maybe she didn't even mean it that way...I don't know, that's why message boards are so hard. Sorry if I came off harsh!! I'll delete that post.
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~Cara~
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Talking to ME, Tommy??? 
I don't care.
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~Cara~
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oh no! I wasn't saying all muslims are terrorists! of course they are not! I was talking about the fact the surveys have shown that the vast majority of fundamentalist muslims are in support of jihad 'holy wars' against infidels ie us! And there is a mosque of fundamentalists around the corner from my house in London. I would never generalise about an entire religion.
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Feel the fear and do it anyway!
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No Cara, not talking to you. I agree with the post you deleted and then SOME! I was going unload on the post that I felt was disrepectful to my country and the INNOCENT people who died on 9/11 and 7/7, and 3/11. It was not anything you or Linz wrote.
Or maybe you'r teasing me? I have no idea! 
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I was just teasing you!  I figured you weren't talking to me, but I wanted to make sure. I didn't mean to start any fights, I just really believe in our government, and I have huge respect for Bush and his decisions...
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~Cara~
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Re: I agree
#198948 - 07/24/05 09:38 AM
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CathUK
Reged: 05/25/04
Posts: 373
Loc: Cambridge, UK
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Sorry for the misunderstanding but I wasn't being disrespectful regarding the 9/11 incident. That was clearly a tragedy and I in no way support that kind of terrorist activity!
I simply meant that I do not agree with ANY war and that I feel sorry for the innocent people that will get blamed due to their religion - when only a few people actually carry out these atrocities.
Hope you understand.
Catherine
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Actually, if I remember my world history right, the conflict between the Middle East and Western Europe predates the Crusades (Saracens, anyone?). And for all I know, it predates the Saracens, too.
An interesting person to read on terrorism is David Gelernter, who survived an attack by the Unabomber. I recommend his book "Drawing Life: Surviving the Unabomber". He is, in fact, appalled by the fact that everyone cannot agree that terrorists are very bad people.
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[Research tells us fourteen out of any ten individuals likes chocolate. - Sandra Boynton]
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