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      #368111 - 08/27/12 07:16 AM
SarahT

Reged: 04/22/11
Posts: 10


Hi All,
I hope I am ok to post this. I wanted to send Susie1985 a private message but can't get that feature to work. You sound just like me Susie and I am going round in circles and just need someone to help me break it. If I could have more details of what to eat and what not to eat that would be lovely. I know all IBS'ers are different but I did really identify with your post when I saw it.
Hope I can get some help.
Thanks
Sarah

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Private messaging is disabled .... NT new
      #368112 - 08/27/12 07:58 AM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA



--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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Re: Private messaging is disabled .... NT new
      #368113 - 08/27/12 09:59 AM
SarahT

Reged: 04/22/11
Posts: 10


Thank you, I thought it might be just me.
I just wanted to know where to start with it all. I have tried cutting out so much and am going round in circles. I think (not sure) I struggle with all fibre even SF. I can (again think) manage porridge , but can't do too many oat cakes, as even too much SF seems to start me off. I struggle with fat, I struggle with sulphur, garlic/onions etc. I need to combine diets I think, but I need help planning my meals and snacks as at present I am not eating enough really. Also what, if any, supplements could/should I take to help. I am really at a loss. I see the site says IBS is not bacteria, or parasites but I might have all that too. I have additional aches and pains with my ibs as well as insomnia. I really need to get help, but the Drs are not providing me with any answers. Anyway, thanks for any input, it will be gratefully received.

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Re: Private messaging is disabled .... NT new
      #368115 - 08/27/12 01:11 PM
Syl

Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 5499
Loc: SK, CANADA

You may find the first two articles in my signature of some interest. They talk about a clinically tested dietary approach for managing function bowel disorders such as IBS. It will explain why things like garlic/onions are problem. Unfortunately, the don't cover the basics like insoluble fiber and fat. Many of us on the board use this approach, called the FODMAP approach, with Heather's diet with good results. Susie1985 uses this approach too.

Ask lots of questions. There are many knowledgeable people on the board.

--------------------
STABLE: ♂, IBS-D 50+ years - Science of IBS

The FODMAP Approach to Managing IBS Symptoms
Evidence-based Dietary Management of Functional GI Symptoms: The FODMAP Approach
FODMAP Chart & Cheatsheet
The Role of Food & Dietary Intervention in IBS

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Re: Private messaging is disabled .... NT new
      #368116 - 08/27/12 08:11 PM
SarahT

Reged: 04/22/11
Posts: 10


Thank you. I have tried fodmap but it didn't help and tried Heather's diet. It looks like I should try a combined approach, but am not sure what a typical days diet should be...i need to read more and plan I guess. Thanks for your help

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the most basic diet to eat new
      #368117 - 08/27/12 09:16 PM
Susie1985

Reged: 05/04/11
Posts: 211


Hi Sarah! Let me try to help!

First and I am actually really sorry for saying this (on this board), but.. while Heather's advice is good generally, it falls short on quite a few specifics, which can really make a difference overall. There is no mention of the FODMAPs, when in actual fact the vast majority of IBS sufferers have trouble from them. This means that e.g. mushrooms are FODMAPs, which are supposedly safe, well they are not SF heavy by any means and have mannitol (which for me is a big trigger). Same goes for apples and applesauce and onions, it may not at all be advisable to eat them. White bread has no more SF than IF, it's roughly equal and nuts are also more IF than SF. Nuts ground or unground make no difference however (to me) and as far as I know you should have no problems from pulp-free orange juice unless you have acid reflux. And for me personally fat is a big problem, which means that I can't eat bread with peanut butter or salmon with potatoes unless I really go for a tiny piece of salmon/v little peanut butter. many recipes on the other board are hugely over the limit when it comes to fat and for me any one meal that contains over a fifth of kcal coming from fat is a trigger.

Just to mention a few things. I have a trust in science and numbers, pls read below my advice and hope that provides some relief. It has for me.

'The diet solution is twofold:

A. follow the four EFI rules:
1. no alcohol
2. no caffeine
3. less insoluble fibre than soluble fibre per meals (peel, deseed and cook until soft) (use a soluble fibre supplement)
4. limited fat per meals - one meal calories coming from fat:25% maximum. (1g fat has 9kcal, 1g carb has 4kcal, 1g protein has 4kcal)

-rough guide fibre content of foods (actual fibre proportions and content depends on variety and ripeness):
http://huhs.harvard.edu/assets/File/OurServices/Service_Nutrition_Fiber.pdf
-fat content of oil - 1 tablespoonful of oil has 120kcal coming from fat!! (e.g. 100g raw chicken breast has 110kcal from other, 1 medium potato has 150kcal: so you can safely cook 200g of raw chicken breasts with that one tbpsoonful of oil and one boiled medium potato)

B. follow the FODMAP guidelines simultaneously:
http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/072710p30.shtml


Safest foods to eat would be (eat them for a week or two at least): porridge (cooked in water), boiled/baked potatoes (no skin), cooled white rice, grilled chicken breast, shrimp, white fish, boiled carrots, peeled baked peppers, peeled cooked courgette (ie zucchini), tomato paste, smooth orange juice, no-pulp-berry juice and a bit of fat with each meal (salmon/olive oil to mention two of the healthiest options, but do count the kcals here, see above), one yellow banana max per day.

Incredibly restricted I know but I think you are extremely unlikely to have trouble from these foods and once your gut has calmed down after a week or so, you may experiment with adding different foods back into your diet one by one to see whether you can tolerate them. A food you can't tolerate may bother you within a couple of hours up to three days.

Normal bowel movements are always easy to pass and they number maximum 3 bowel movements per day & minimum 3 bowel movements per week.

Spasmodic pain and bloating may never be completely eliminated, but will probably be greatly reduced through adherence to this diet. '

--------------------
now: stable through EFI+FODMAP dieting (no lactose/no fructose/some fructans and some polyols)

before: IBS-D(pseudo-diarrhoea), bloating, often unbearable pain esp from too much fat: Apr 2007- Dec 2010


FODMAPs: http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/072710p30.shtml


[I've tried VSL#3 -> I could tolerate v good amounts of IF (even with less SF), it worked great (but overall I find it too expensive)]

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Re: the most basic diet to eat new
      #368118 - 08/27/12 09:58 PM
SarahT

Reged: 04/22/11
Posts: 10


Thank you Susie. That was partly why I was going to send a private message, as I don't want to say Heather's diet didn't work as I am sure for many it does, I am just more complex and I could see you were too.
I have some further questions if that is ok?
Why is white rice cooled?
Why no salmon with potatoes?
Is brown rice not ok? I say that because I eat rice cakes and they are brown, I believe
In terms of veg, just courgette, pepper and carrots (peeled)?
Why grilled chicken breast? Can it be cooked in the oven?
So breakfast could be porridge (that is easy) but can I add spices? Like ginger or cinamon?
Lunch - not sure - chicken (cold ok?) and cold white rice?
Dinner - fish (white?) and the veg mentioned?
Does that sound reasonable. In terms of snacks is there anything acceptable?
Oh yes I forgot potatoes, so could have jacket potato and say tuna?
Not sure I understand about the fat. Do I add a little fat in, by say drizzling olive oil on (small amount?)
How long to see a change? I am assuming only a few days maybe?
If I then start to add things back in again I assume that they should be on the principles of EFI & Fodmap. Not sure at this stage what would be ok to add in, but first I want to get some relief.
I have a friend that has IBS attacks. I am like it every day and have been for years. The odd day my bowel is normal is a huge cause for celebration.
Sorry to ask questions, it is a little overwhelming at present but I will (must) do it as I want to feel better.
I may have more things once my head is clearer.
Thank you very much for your help.
Sarah


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Re: the most basic diet to eat new
      #368119 - 08/28/12 04:12 AM
Susie1985

Reged: 05/04/11
Posts: 211


Happy to help!

Cooled white rice and cooled potatoes mean that they are not boiling hot (wait a bit if freshly cooked). Warmed up in the microwave is also better than straight off the hob. Only reason for this is that once cooked grains and potatoes cool, resistant starch forms on top, which acts as functional fibre, the same way SF does. Eating more SF than IF per meals is always a good idea, as SF basically acts as a buffer and ensures that IF does not send your digestive track into spasms, which would then result in D/C/bloating/pain. Bananas have a lot of RS by default, so that's why they are OK. As you can see from the harvard fibre link, they may not seem safe at first.

You can eat salmon with potatoes, the only thing you may have to be careful about is fat content. what you want is 25% of kcal coming from fat within a meal. there is a meal that has 400kcal, then 100kcal should come from fat maximum, 300 from protein or carbs.
So : one medium potato has 150kcal (from carbs), depending on the salmon, in roughly 100g salmon, you will have 100kcal coming from fat from the salmon and 100kcal protein. if you aim for a 400kcal meal and you eat one and a half medium potatoes , ie 225kcal coming from carbs, 100kcal protein and 100kcal fat from salmon, this makes it a non-trigger meal as you can see the overall fat content is only a quarter of kcal. Now, not everyone has to be this careful with fat, that's why Heather recommends that you keep your fat levels low overall, ie per day, but that has never worked for me. I have learnt to count fat kcal for individual meals. It's v easy to go overboard as 1g of fat has 9kcal and 1g carb/protein only has 4. So Maths skills required I'm afraid.

Brown rice may well be problematic. You see, brown rice has more IF than SF and wholegrains are even more troublesome for many than the IF in fruit and veg. Best go for white rice cakes/cooked white rice/white rice cereal, like Cocopops in the UK is fine.

In terms of veg, those three I mentioned are the most basic and the least likely to cause you problems. Spinach is likely OK if you eat it with enough SF supplement. You can check which FODMAP veggies are recommended in that link, theoretically if you eat enough SF with them, IF may not be a big problem. For me however, bean sprouts and green beans, while FODMAP friendly, still cause a lot of smelly gas, and of course they are high in IF. Mushy veggies like swedes and marrow and pumpkin should be fine. Sweet potatoes too, these all cooked and peeled should be OK. that v basic diet is really for just a week or two to get things really calm. Then you should experiment and add one thing back, wait 3 days to see if you have trouble. E.g. you eat these v safe foods for 2 weeks, everything is back to normal and you eat 2 slices of white bread then. if you have no trouble, you can eat a bit of/much fructans from then on, ie either bread or pasta or cooked barley. there are many fruit and veg listed in the FODMAP charts, most are however high in IF, so FODMAP friendly foods with SF supplement should be fine, but again, best wait and only try that once things are running smoothly.

chicken of course can be oven baked. I meant grilled so that it's as oil free as possible. you can make it with oil too, but then again you need to make sure that it's not overly fatty. the problem with fat is that it is so easy to go overboard by mistake. one tablespoonful of oil has a whopping 120kcal. as I said if fat is not a big trigger for you, then you don't need to count fat kcal meticulously, but if it is then it's worth the trouble.

spices like ginger and cinnamon are IF technically, although a tiny bit can't really hurt, but who knows. maybe again get things calm and then experiment.

jacket potato sounds good and tuna (canned in water, right? ie not in oil or not freshwater which tends to be really high in fat) is great.

I use Benefiber in Britain (wheat dextrin with nothing else added) as a SF supplement.

so that's it. I hope it's clear, pls ask if you have further queries and best of luck.

--------------------
now: stable through EFI+FODMAP dieting (no lactose/no fructose/some fructans and some polyols)

before: IBS-D(pseudo-diarrhoea), bloating, often unbearable pain esp from too much fat: Apr 2007- Dec 2010


FODMAPs: http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/072710p30.shtml


[I've tried VSL#3 -> I could tolerate v good amounts of IF (even with less SF), it worked great (but overall I find it too expensive)]

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Re: the most basic diet to eat new
      #368120 - 08/28/12 08:36 AM
SarahT

Reged: 04/22/11
Posts: 10


Thanks again. As you can imagine I am nervous, I really want to feel better and food has generally come to scare me if I am honest.
Over the years I have read so many diets for IBS. Eating the rice makes me nervous as I read the IBS low starch diet and thought that might help. I don't think it does, but it left me nervous. I am going with this though as it makes sense with my symptoms, I have struggled with brown rice for years, yet been told time and time again, "everyone can eat rice". So it does make sense. I feel so ill that I will do whatever it takes to feel well.
I have just had porridge, white rice and chicken for lunch and am planning on sweet potato and white fish for dinner. Does that seem like a reasonable day? I am sorry I need so much support, I have been left feeling very alone with this by the Drs, living in concern about why I am so ill, but having no way out (I am sure I am not the only one).
A fibre supplement scares me a little if I am honest. I just need to try and understand better and build up my confidence in this approach, it may take a while.
I am trying really hard though.
Thanks again
Sarah

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Re: the most basic diet to eat
      #368123 - 08/29/12 01:49 AM
Susie1985

Reged: 05/04/11
Posts: 211


Really hope it works out! Sweet potatoes may have more IF than SF but as long as you don't eat it boiling hot I think you should be fine.

Fibre supplements... they are invaluable but yes you do have to be careful which one you're opting for. I have only experience with Benefiber, in the UK there is no insulin or anything added, it's wheat dextrin, pure SF and it's great.

--------------------
now: stable through EFI+FODMAP dieting (no lactose/no fructose/some fructans and some polyols)

before: IBS-D(pseudo-diarrhoea), bloating, often unbearable pain esp from too much fat: Apr 2007- Dec 2010


FODMAPs: http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/072710p30.shtml


[I've tried VSL#3 -> I could tolerate v good amounts of IF (even with less SF), it worked great (but overall I find it too expensive)]

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