no rest, no sleep .....help!
#182939 - 06/02/05 12:22 PM
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I have read everything I can find on the site, and there seems to be a lot of insomnia like I have (and Zelnorm made it worse).
After years of meds. and changing diets, I finally decided 3 mos. ago to stick to Heather's diet, Acacia powder and peppermint pills (no fennel, I hate licorice!).
To put it in a nutshell, over the mos. I have gotten myself drug free by sticking to Heather's diet; ie: off Zelnorm, Librax except in extreme relapses, but I can't get off sleep aids (Ambien or Lunesta) because I don't rest. I am like many others, wide awake at night, or sleep 4-6 hrs. with sleep aids and then wide awake. Has anyone looked into the excess sugar in Heather's diet (at least excess from what I'm used to) as being a cause for sleeplessness. Like a kid, hyperactive from too much sugar?
Is there a resolution to this loss of sleep? Exhaustion will bring on a relapse for me on the D side. This sleep issue seems to be a vicious circle........
Any ideas other than teas, CA, MG, low protein dinners, etc. I've tried most everything and taking half my prescription of Ambien, 10 mg., when I go to bed and the other half when I wake up to go to the bathroom about 2 pm, is the only way I get 6-7 hours sleep.
Anxiety may be part of it, but I'm not anxious that I know of. I know the problem is IBS. I've had all the tests, and I'm a "healthy woman", much older than most of you! I know stress plays a big part......but right now I'm not stressed.
Any ideas?
Edited by Barbara Lynn (06/02/05 12:25 PM)
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It's just that it is safe for IBS. I have Fibro and avoid sugar b/c of that.
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lack of sleep is a serious trigger for me also, but i am C. i waited all that time for lunesta to come out, got it, then it did absolutely nothing for my insomnia, nor for any of the patients my gp had on it. so if it works at all for you, you are lucky. ambien i am leary of re: addiction potential + it only gives me 4 hrs sleep, which i've heard is common. i see you double dose it - i've heard that's what many need to do.
what about a low dose sedating antidepressant to use for sleep? would also help that catch-all term 'stress,' whatever that is. ha! only issue is that they often (not always) cause carb cravings + weight gain.
1) remeron is best for sleep at 7.5 mg, but *may* be the worst one for cravings + weight gain.
2) doxepin (sinequan) at 10-25 mg
also:
3) low dose antipsychotics are now being widely used for sleep. no need to worry about anything on the low doses, unless you also have reflux. seroquel seems to be the most popular. i *think* the dose is 25 mg. (taking one does not mean your doc thinks you're psychotic, btw.) there is usually some weight gain issue with these also, other than geodon and abilify, BUT i don't know how those 2 work for sleep. maybe someone else does.
sometimes i think sugar is an issue; other times i do not.
good luck - this stuff can be tough to solve!
Edited by pulse (06/02/05 01:07 PM)
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I am not sure if you know, but sleep aids of any kind cause C (they put your bowels to sleep too). Trying to get up everyday at the same time, not napping and going to bed at a reasonable and regular time will help. I have found "Sleepytime" tea to make me relaxed enough to let my mind shut down without causing C. I thought it did once but the C was from something else. Also a hot bath before bed helps. Try anything and everything to get your mind relaxed and hopefully you can get rid of the sleeping pill addiction (which is what really happens.)
As for sugar, I eat sugar and I sleep well. But then kids sleep so good too (once you make them go to bed.) Yet as Linz says you don't have to have sugar.
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IBS-A for 20 years with terrible bloating and gas. On the diet since April 2004. Remember this from Heather's information pages:
"You absolutely must eat insoluble fiber foods, and as much as safely possible, but within the IBS dietary guidelines. Treat insoluble fiber foods with suitable caution, and you'll be able to enjoy a wide variety of them, in very healthy quantities, without problem." Please eat IF foods!
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i agree they cause C - IF - you mean sleep aids such as ambien, lunesta, halcion, the OTC ones, and even benadryl.
however, remeron is one sedating antidepressant that should not cause much C, if any.
yours are very good suggestions, but none are enough for alot of us - i.e., those who also have moderate to severe degrees of mood disorders like depression, bipolar, anxiety disorders, or any combos of.
i've also tried the 'natural' alternatives: valerian makes me VERY ill, melatonin can cause depression, all others don't make a dent in my insomnia. i've been grappling with either not falling asleep, not staying asleep, or too early am awakenings for the better part of 2 yrs, nearly constantly. had these problems off & on since i was a child - mostly ON. unlike the lady above, if i don't get sleep, it's my C that becomes much worse - i can count on it.
i've not had one, but some benefit by having a sleep study done.
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Heather's diet doesn't have an excessive amount of sugar in it - in fact it doesn't need to have any sugar in it at all. That is, you don't NEED the sugar to get stable! I personally don't eat any sugar except for the occassional mint candy to help settle my stomach.
I know though that when starting the diet a lot of people (myself included in this one) find that they start eating lots of sugary stuff because a lot of other usual 'indulgences' are now off limits. But again, you don't need the sugar!
So if you're curious about this [sugar] causing you to stay up at night, my advice would be to first try cutting out sugar.
(LOL ok I've typed 'sugar' so many times in this entry that it's starting to lose meaning! haha...)
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Thanks for all your ideas. I've been the route of sleepy time teas, this and that, etc. So I'm going to try the lower sugar and higher protein. I'm hungry all the time anyway, so a soy drink at night might help. I keep loosing weight bit by bit in spite of eating everything.....but no fat, no high calorie meats and sauces, no alcohol, no dairy.....it figures. All these "low carb" people should try Heather's diet!!:O)
Anyway thanks for all the advice. I will keep the list of antidepressants, etc. and if this doesn't improve, talk to my Dr. I don't get on here that often, but I've certainly enjoyed my first few days......
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Hi there!
How qare you doing these days? Is your sleep any better? Just checkin' in!
Ruchie
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Formerly known as Ruchie
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that stinks that you cant sleep  i imagine then its probably making your IBS even more annoying then usual?? well, i have kind of a strange remedy for sleeping, b/c i used to get really bad migraines and i was always unable to fall asleep to will them away. okay--you will need to go to a health store that specializes primarily in vitamins. there is something called liquid melatonin [sp??] its a solution that you take with an eye dropper under your tongue, 20 minutes before your desired bedtime. make a cup of celestial seasonings sleepytime tea and while its brewing/steeping, drop the solution under your tongue and keep it there for about 30-60 seconds, and then swallow. sip your tea and literally within those 20 minutes of ingestion, youll fall asleep! its really strange, but it works. i didnt have difficulties with insomnia and it put me out like a light so i imagine it will be just as strong for you, and the tea is a nice way to slip into extra relaxation! also, if youre familiar with bath and body works, im sure you are!! they carried a product called aromatherapy headache relief that you could rub onto your temples and on your face. the cooling of the peppermint always makes me close my eyes, so if a store is near, you should pop in and pick it up! they also had peppermint-lavender gel face masks that lay over your eyes.
i really hope that helps! i know when i dont get enough sleep, it sends my digestion into haywire and im huge and bloaty all day long! hang in there!! bye
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VEGAN ASHLEY~IBS/C
www.myspace.com/dutchflowers
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I've been using lavender essential oil. Note: I am a terrible sleeper and the only way I get some zzz's is with pharmacological, i.e. prescription assistance. I have always been this way. Even when I followed a really low carb diet I was this way. Lavender essential oil, though, has a really sedating, relaxing effect on me. I just rub the stuff on my temples, in my pillow, on tender areas of my body. I also fall asleep, i.e. drift off either listening to nature c.d.'s or to alternative or punk music. I think the later makes my subconscious feel safe, i.e. creates a noise "blanket"/"barrier" so that the white noise of my house doesn't keep me awake. Classical music and baroque doesn't work, because it's just too interesting and rap is too annoying. No lights, only sound. The manipulated sound
lulls me into something I suppose is sleep. Folk music isn't bad either and ethnic/celtic style subdues as well. Toss in some lutes and lyres...you'll know what you need should you try some audial manipulation. I also wear a sleep mask. No light penetrates. I have black curtains covering my blinds...this is because I'm hyper light sensitive and also prone to migraines, not because I'm some freaky weirdo. Basically, DESENSUALIZE...have you tried any meditation or hypno? This stuff plus some drugs helps me. Feel yourself sinking into the sheets and your dreaming self flying....
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What exactly did it make you feel like? What side effects did you have? Did it make you more C? Since it is suppose to relax the body, I'm afraid it is relaxing my bowels to, prohibiting me from going and increasing the constipation, and therefore, the pain, gas, and bloat that go along with it. 
I am just like you...feel "wired" all the time and cannot get a decent night's sleep. I never feel rested. Wide awake hours before I need to be and this always makes my C worse. The best thing to help me "go" and have a BM is sleeping until 9 am! A good 10 hours of sleep!
Do you take any meds? I take Klonopin and Valerian at night, but worry that both may be increasing the Constipation and neither seems to be working lately. They used to work for sleep...but recently stopped.
I am at the end of my tether! (A saying I picked up from my Aussie friend Amy)! 
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~ Beth
Constipation, pain prodominent,cramps, spasms and bloat!
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Does the meletonin have a worsening effect on your C? I fear that anything ingested that is meant to relax me will also relax my bowels too much! 
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~ Beth
Constipation, pain prodominent,cramps, spasms and bloat!
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I can't take Valarian. I've always been a little afraid of it since a friend I had was so addicted to Valium. Then someone told me Valerian is what Valium comes from. Now that might not be true, but then a lot of drugs we pay lots of money for come from simple things. Anyway, Valerian relaxes me, but doesn't put me to sleep.
As for melatonin, it doesn't do much for me sleeping.. I have to use a sleeping med like Ambien or Lunesta, neither of which works for a whole night. More like 5 hours. Anything that relaxes the body is going to make the intestines relax too and be a possible cause of more C. I find that as long as I have plenty of fiber (Heather's Acacia -about 3 tbsp/day- and ground flax seed -another 2 tbsp added to oatmeal in the morning starts my day) then the relaxants at bedtime don't seem to bother either the C end or the D end, when I'm in that faze.
I am experimenting with lack of minerals and vitamins as a possible cause to loss of sleep. I know that low K (potassium) will cause my heart to beat faster, make me tired feeling but wired and unable to sleep. Last night I got out of bed and ate a banana at 12:30 am and then finally went to sleep. I am also looking at the possible loss of B vitamins on the energy line. Etc. Maybe someone has some ideas about vitamin and mineral loss, which must be especially prevalent in the D end of this disease.
For me, I know I dove into part 1 of Heather's Cheat Sheet only last Jan., in a frantic effort to get my GI tract under control. Then I was almost afraid to eat anything else, and your body does need other things. So now I'm adding more vegetables in the broccoli, and green end and a little more fat. Not much, just choosing where I want to have that fat. Just baby steps back into all those loved other foods and seeing what I can and cannot tolerate.
I don't get time to post often on here, but I'm sure glad you're all here. Thank you for all advice. Some I will definitely try and then post my own personal reactions.
Barb
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Bananas actually contain A LOT of amino acids which convert very quickly and easily into TRYPTOPHAN. They've got a lot of magnesium, too. NO WONDER IT HELPED YOU SLEEP. I have done the same thing. I went through a phase where all I ate was bananas. My whole cerebral spinal neuromusculature relaxed!
Certain veggies/greens are notable for their calming, tranquilizing effect. Experiment, journal and see which ones work for you. Rice is also high in tryptophan.
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Turkey too!
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People respond differently to different forms of tryptophan. You'll stumble upon the one that just magically clicks and be able to manipulate it appropriately for some good zzz's. A banana does it for me. So does spinach and asparagus and swiss chard and rice. I'm quite frankly a poor sleeper and have always been that way and have prescription sleeping pills. You can also get tryptophan supplements. Some people have difficulty converting food into the amino acid tryptophan I took it for awhile and it worked, but I just can't deal with popping more pills and more nausea. I've been catching siestas. Lately, what works for me is sleeping with music on, really loud music--usually alternative and punk in nature. I'm playing with the "white noise" effect, i.e. creating a sound layer/buffer so I don't hear the sounds of the house, i.e. a/c, furnace, water, etc.
Peaches and mango also put me right out like a baby, but I've got to watch it because they just go right through me.
Let me know when you find/create a good formula that works for you, Barbara Lynn.
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This sounds bizarre, so take it with a grain of salt, but I once read that 2 tbsp of peanut butter after supper or before bedtime can help stave off insomnia. Worth a try!
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Formerly HanSolo. IBS, OCD, Bipolar, PTSD times 3.
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The P.B. thing is another one of those "tryptophan" related "cures."
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Hi, Barb,
I think I'm older than most on this site, too - 55.
If you're able to exercise, I'd recommend that - But early in the day, not before bedtime. Walking several miles a day is wonderful. I think just being outside, and moving, is glorious beyond words. 
Sometimes people need even more exercise to feel good and sleep well. I run at least 4 or 5 miles a day, 4 or 5 days a week. More, when I'm training for something. That helps me sleep, for sure. When I can't run, I don't sleep well. I also lift weights, and ride my horse.
I also know that when my stomach feels crappy, I don't sleep at all!!! So sticking to the diet (and it sounds like you're doing that) is crucial. Although I exercise mostly for my psyche, it sure makes my insides feel better, too!
Hang in there. Dragging around feeling exhausted is no fun. Keep experimenting, and you'll find something that works!
-Sue
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I have been wondering about melatonin! I'm SO GLAD you posted this! It is something I will have to look into. Hubby insists we wait until my naturopath gets back in town to decide what to do for my depression/anxiety/insomnia (due to flashbacks and fears)...but this sounds WONDERFUL AND healthy!!!
I hope you got my e-mail and many apologies Ashley? Thank you for being such a great friend to me and for being such a wonderful suport on these boards *hugs*
Love ya!
Ruch
P.S. Peppermint is SOOO COOLING...feels sooo nice on a headache! Do you know what else they put in this remedy at Bath and Body? Thanks!
--------------------
Formerly known as Ruchie
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I WISH I could use lavendar oil! I am SO sensative to smell there are only a few oils I can tolerate. And audio keeps me awake...even Mike's hypno tapes did I must be REALLY weird!
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Formerly known as Ruchie
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Ruchie
#191372 - 07/04/05 12:33 AM
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Linz
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 8242
Loc: England
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How about real fresh or dried lavender? The oil is SUCH a concentrated scent...btw, you did dilute it before sniffing it, yeah? If I don't it can give me a headache on a Fibro day, but if I do, it helps.
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I agree, Suze, that exercise is important; I swim and do a ot of gardening,. ........and you're right, I am sticking to the diet, maybe to the extreme. And I'm "much" older than you, at 63! , but I agree there are few of us older ones in this group!! I also believe that the IBS gets worse as we get older, and harder to control.
I think back over the years, and I'm pretty sure that I actually had some form of IBS for years. Not until 5years ago, and a sudden 15 lb weight loss, not being able to eat anything but bread, crackesr, and chicken soup, and everything going right through me, did I come to a sudden halt and end up at a gastro's office. He put me on the Librax, which seemed like a cure all, until this past year. Then much of the same thing started while on the Librax. ......and the Doctors!!! Well, they love pills!! Then came Heather's site in my research. Thank goodness!! I'm now only taking Librax now and then.
I know another thing about the sleep. When I'm overtired, like today, my GI tract just doesn't function well at all. It's all I can do to keep things under control, and sometimes I have to revert back to the Librax for a day or two to control D. Food just seems to go right straight through me when I am overtired, and not particularly in the D form, just like a baby, soft and too light in color and a transit time of an hour or two.
Last night was a classic night for me. To bed at 10:30, take my Lumina sleeping pill. Fall asleep in about 1/2 hour. Woke up at 4:15, wide awake after 5 + hours sleep. ........and no amount of relaxation techniques can get me back to sleep. So I finally give up at 6 or so. Now it's 2 pm and I'm exhausted after spending a few hours in the garden. But I will go to bed tonight and lay awake starring at the ceiling if I don't take the sleep aid.
IE: What is the underlying cause of this insomnia? I keep trying different things. I'm too sensitive to scents to try that, but tryptophan and potassium seem to help. (Had no bananas this am!) Peanut butter helps me rest but it also is not the best thing for my pre bedtime snack (at about 8 pm) as it tends to irritate the bowel.
Protein is a plus for me.
The other thing is that this holistic med. person had me try no sugars at all, bread nothing, for two weeks last winter and she had me taking concentrated oregano pills. I actually did sleep better, at least longer, but the lack of carbs didn't agree with my colon that well at all.
I know, I'm going on here..........and I want to say how much I appreciate all the input, quite a bit of which I have, am, or will try. Thanks all!!
Barb (and I will get a pixs up one of these days!)
Edited by Barbara Lynn (07/10/05 11:32 AM)
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hmm---specifically i dont know offhand, as i do not have the bottle any more, but i didnt notice any C problems afterwards. the time i took it was during my really good days when i barely had any C or digestion problems. it was nice=)
--------------------
VEGAN ASHLEY~IBS/C
www.myspace.com/dutchflowers
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i havent tried it with the sleepy time tea yet but figure it would be nice. its definately a safer way to send yourself off to sleep. run the idea by your naturpath and see what he/she says just to be sure.
i got your emails and sent you one back i was unavoidably detained and unable to access my comp too so i was very respondant so worry you need'nt! hehe 
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VEGAN ASHLEY~IBS/C
www.myspace.com/dutchflowers
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