Anyone else have this weird AND very frustrating problem?
#23075 - 10/10/03 02:26 PM
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lithelady
Reged: 08/15/03
Posts: 339
Loc: Novato, CA
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Haven't had time all week to join in here so it feels good to be back again.  I have a weird issue regarding managing my C-IBS.
Since discovering H's diet 2 1/2 months ago I'm finally no longer feeling bloated, gassy and significantly uncomfortable all the time, and in fact most days I feel good and even sometimes great! I'd actually forgotten what it feels like to feel good/great after 25+ years of steadily worsening IBS.
My question pertains to the ONE issue I haven't been able to resolve since starting on H's diet. This issue feels so weird to me that it's taken me this long to post here about it. Anyway, here goes.
For at least the past 5+ years I awaken between 4-6AM, at the latest, and this is the ONE time of day when my colon is able to work well and thus clean out well. If I don't get up during this window of time it's a guarantee that I'll be constipated and very uncomfortable that day.
My BIG problem is that I seem to need 9 hours of sleep every night to be well-rested. Seems from everything I've read about sleep(lots!!) that there's a bell curve in the population for how many hours of sleep people need and the bell curve ranges from 5-10. Most people fall between 61/2-8. I've never read anywhere that this bell curve has been shown to be genetically determined but 2 of my 3 sibs and both of my parents are big sleepers, so it seems to me that being on the far side of the bell curve must have some genetic determinants.
Unfortunately, when I don't get a sound nine hours of sleep my energy ranges from mediocre to lousy the next day and my IBS symptoms are much worse, even on H's diet. My problem is that since I awaken naturally so early, it means that I have to get to bed by 8:30-9-30 every night. I try really hard to do this, but it's impossible to do it all the time and it makes for a very boring and lonely social life......I'm single and live alone so no one to talk to except myself and that that definitely gets boring!! 
Sooooooo, can anyone suggest some ways that I can either:
a) reduce the number of hours of sleep I need, WITHOUT using any prescription drugs. All sleep meds, both prescription or OTCounter, make my constipation worse, plus they don't give me a good normal night's sleep if I use them on a regular basis. (my experience here is consistent w/ what I've read many times in various medical articles about sleep. I've reviewed so many articles in my efforts to find a solution to needing so much sleep, that if reading about sleep helped a person to sleep better I'd be a narcoleptic! LOL)
Trying to reduce the number of hours of sleep that I need would be my first choice, b/c I often feel that from about 3AM onwards I'm not sleeping deeply. So I'm thinking that the shallow/restless quality of the last few hours of my sleep is why I need more than the average number of hours of sleep. However,I haven't been able to find any way to induce sound, deep sleep again once I start to partially awaken around 3AM.
I have NO PROBLEM falling asleep or staying asleep soundly until 4-6AM. I sleep in a pitch black room and wear earplugs so NO SOUNDS ever awaken me. I get early AM sunlight every day and also exercise aerobically every day for at least 20-30 minutes. In addition, I know I'm not depressed, b/c as long as I get enuf sleep I feel great the next day and I'm very productive, optimistic and energetic. However, if I get less than a sound 9 hours I feel fatigued and this drains all my energy and enthusiasm.
Lastly, unfortunately, my body doesn't "nap" well at all. In fact the only time I can fall asleep soundly, other than at night, is when I'm ill. Also, going back to sleep after 6AM, [or after I've gotten cleaned, whichever comes first), isn't an option. It usually takes me 40-60 minutes to get cleaned out well and by then I'm wide awake, even if I feel tired.  I believe that this is b/c I'm fundamentally a very high energy-but not hyper-person. Even when I'm very tired most people can't tell that I am, but I sure feel it! Worse yet, fatigue often gives me a low-grade headache that makes it even harder to get thru the day w/any degree of upbeat motivation, which when I'm rested, is my normal "operating" mode. 
b) The other option I can think of is to figure out how to get my bowels to be willing to clean out well later in the AM than 4-6AM, so that I can then go to bed at a later hour, like 10-11 and still be well rested the next day b/c I've been able to sleep in past 4-6AM. I've not been able to find anything in all that I've read that talks about being able to do this successfully, let alone how to do it.I take fiber supplements 3X/day - early AM upon waking, late AM and mid-afternoon, since starting on H's diet but doing this hasn't affected my AM waking time at all.
I have no idea how, or even IF it's possible to move my body's inner peristaltic rhythm back to a later hour in the AM. I have my doubts that it's possible to switch one's body's natural rhythms BUT I'm open to all suggestions b/c I'm SO TIRED of feeling tired. If I can solve this one remaining BIG problem then I'll finally have this "IBS thing" under enough control that I can start to have some fun in my life again w/my many wonderful friends, whom I rarely get to see due to this problem, AND maybe finally meet "MR. RIGHT"!!! It's tough to socialize or date when I know that I need to leave by 8PM. It's easier to just not attend anything or accept a date than to put myself in this awkward position of having to have the willpower- and make the excuses- to leave all the fun at 8PM, esp since I don't feel tired at 8PM but I know that if I don't leave at that hour and get home to go to be asleep by 9PM, I'll feel crummy and be constipated the next day. 
Sorry to write so much and thanks for reading all of it. Most of all, thanks for ANY AND ALL suggestions, insights, etc.  LL
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Many years of C-IBS and pain too for past 2 years-
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I think you may be right that you are in bed more hours because you don't sleep soundly for a portion of the night. I had this problem and went through a program at Stanford Sleep Clinic. I would be in bed for 9-10 hours, but in reality I was only getting quality sleep about 7-1/2 hours. So I learned how to consolidate my sleep. It's a bit of a process, but it did improve my sleep habits, and I don't feel the need to stay in bed for such long hours. You're not that far from Stanford, right? So you might be interested in taking their insomnia workshop. If that's not realistic, let me know, and I'll dig up notes and info on the process and post them.
You might also try taking your fiber supplements on a different schedule. I'm no expert on this, but if I need to go early in the morning (2 days a week I have to leave home at 6:30am and I like to go before I leave, if you know what I mean), then I need to take my supplements early in the day. Otherwise, later in the day is better, and I go around 8-9am. Maybe you could take your 3 doses starting at noon instead of starting first thing in the morning.
Have to laugh about your morning "window of opportunity"--But when you're IBS-C, if you miss it, you're sunk for the day.
Judithg
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Hi Judithg,
Txs for the info about the sleep consolidation concept.I've never read anything about this idea before but it sounds like exactly what I need! Unfortunately Stanford is about 3 hours from here but I'm still going to call their Sleep Disorders program and see if they can mail me some info. Do you have any MD or other person there whom you'd recommend I try to talk with?
Also, was the course you took a one day thing or did it require going back to Stanford a number of times? Was the program covered by your insurance?
Lastly, it'd be wonderful if you could find your notes and when you have the time, post whatever you can find, so that I can start to try to learn this consolidation concept approach on my own. Txs again so much! LL
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Many years of C-IBS and pain too for past 2 years-
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Hello!
I just read your about your sleep problem. In addition to the Stanford U program, I wonder if changing the time of your exercise regime might help -- perhaps to later in the day so you are REALLY TIRED when you go to bed! Also, would you consider doing a more strenuous/longer workout? I speedwalk on the treadmill at the gym for about 50 minutes (I can't run because I have arthritis) and then I do weight lifting for another hour. (I am an 85-pound weakling though!)
I go to the gym about three times a week after work and I sleep like a log afterwards! The next day or two I have so much energy that I don't need as much sleep as I might otherwise need!
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LL-The doctor who did the insomnia workshop was Dr. Tracy Kuo. She is still listed on the website--give the sleep clinic a call and ask for her--(650)723-6601. Unfortunately her class is 7 weeks (once a week). I wonder if they do a consolidated 1-2 day program though. The good news is that it was covered by insurance!
I know it's a hassle--I'm about 2 hours from Stanford (in the other direction) and it can be difficult to have to travel so far. One thing to consider is to have a sleep study done--you just go to Stanford once for an evaluation, then one night (overnight) for the sleep study. Then they can make recommendations.
I will do some looking around in my files and see if I can find some info that would be helpful to you. Give me a few days!:)
Judithg
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I too have a problem with sleeping through the night waking at 2am or 3am. I do relax breathing to fall back to sleep.
sometimes it happens 2 to 3 days in a row and then for about
2 to 3 days I get through the night but always wake up by 5:30am? I haven't had a sound diagnosis of IBS, but still have slight syptoms after having uncontrolled d for 21/2 months. Then after a colonoscopy and endoscopy things settled down. I still use Heathers diet and avoid wheat and gluten as much as possible. I still occassionally have tummy upsets. Anyhow you know what it's like.
I've been considering using the hypno tapes myself.
Hope you get some relief.
sherri
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Hi Judithg, Sher and Belinda,
Txs so much for sharing your personal experiences, suggestions and support. At Mags' suggestion I went to the Hypno board to ask Shawn about the tapes so this thread has moved over there now. I'm copying my first reply here and then plz come join us over there, the more the merrier......even if were not dealing w/ a merry issue here! I've always liked the saying: "share a misery w/ someone and the misery has been cut in half". Hope to see the 3 of you over there and txs again for your support and ideas. 
101203:
Hi Evie and Shawn,
(I'm old fashioned so have to write lady's name first even tho your reply was first Shawn. )
Txs for all the suggestions and links, Shawn. I'm sure I'll learn alot from doing some research via the links.
As far as your ideas Evie, I stopped using ANY caffeine about a year ago and for the past several years I haven't let myself eat ANYTHING sweet, and esp no chocolate, after 5PM. I initiated these changes so that I would know for sure that those 3 factors weren't contibuting to my sleep problem. VERY boring but it has helped my peace of mind to know that I'm not doing anything "wrong" dietary -wise.
As far as anxiety, I don't think that's the problem either. I have dimmers on the lights in all the rooms in my home and I turn them down about an hour before I want to go to sleep and then I meditate or read very peacefully for the last 30 mins before going to sleep.
Moreso, on the nights when I toss and turn due to my IBS symptoms making me uncomfortable I'll STILL wake up early, but b/c I've slept so poorly I won't have a BM at all. These are what I call my "double bummer days"- tired AND constipated- but fortunately they've decreased alot since being on H's diet b/c my IBS discomfort and gas sxs have decreased tremendously.
At this point I think that I need to get more exercise, so I'm going to start weight lifting again. I'm very lean and have alot of energy both mentally and physically so I think that I need to tire out my body more during the day than I'm currently doing in order to get my mind to be tireder too!
However, I am curious about your use of trazadone. Do you have C-IBS? I was told by an MD [I trust what they tell me less and less, so will trust your input about this much more] that it would make my C worse. Has this been your experience?
Finally, I'm going to get the tapes b/c even the little I've had the time to read over past few days about hypnoRx for IBS has convinced me to try them. It just makes alot of sense to me that my unconscious mind has become hyper-aware of my GI tract over the years. I read somewhere that my mind could ultimately have maladapted to believing that having C-IBS symptoms and being a "poor" sleeper is my "normal" state. What a weird thing for it to want to do.......it obviouslyhasn't been listening to my conscious mind! LOL
My intuition, which is very good usually.....--I sure hope it's on the money, literally and figuratively on this one--is telling me that I need to reprogram my unconscious. Sounds kind of spooky but I'm ready to give it a whirl, since so many seemed to have been helped so much by these tapes. Mind over body, here I come!
Last thought. Do either of you think/feel that the tapes actually reprogrammed your unconscious mind? I suspect your answers will be "yes", b/c I believe that's their purpose. However, what I'm really asking, and am curious to know, is HOW you each experienced this reprogramming, in terms of what you felt was changing in your bodies/minds as you each went thru the 100 days of the tape program.
Thanks so much for ALL your help and support. I have high hopes for the tapes!
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Many years of C-IBS and pain too for past 2 years-
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Judithg,
Txs so muhc for MD's name and number that'll help alot when I call down there. Good to hear that insurance covered it, now to get Kaiser to do the same!
I agree that it'd be worth it to go down there for the 7 weeks once a week but I'd still greatly appreciate whatever notes you can find from when you took the class. If it's easier to just FAX them to me instead of typing the info into a msge here, plz let me know and I'll send you my FAX no.
Txs again and I'll check back on this board for your reply to this msge, in case you don't have the time or desire to reply via the Hypno board, per my msge above. LL
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Many years of C-IBS and pain too for past 2 years-
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LL--Here are some of my notes:
1. Do not go to bed until you are sleepy and never before your prescribed bedtime.
2. If you cannot fall asleep within 15 minutes either at the beginning of the night or in the middle of the night, get out of bed and leave the bedroom. Do not watch the clock. 15 minutes is what it feels like to you. When you begin to feel frustrated, get the feeling that sleep is not coming, or you are wishing you could take a sleeping pill, it is time to get out of bed. DO NOT WORRY IN BED. Do something pleasant and relaxing during the time you are out of bed--something that is not stimulating (I watch TV or read).
3. Return to bed only when you feel sleepy.
4. Repeat Step 2 and 3 as often as necessary throughout the night.
5. Get up at the same time every morning.
6. Use the bed/bedroom for sleep and sex only. Do not watch TV, listen to radio, eat, drink, talk on the phone, read, or do work in bed (you can read in bed if it is a relaxing rather than stimulating activity for you).
7. Unless you nap on a regular basis, try to avoid napping.
8. When you get up in the morning, get vertical immediately. Light exposure can be helpful. (For me, getting sunlight first thing in the morning helped me regulate my sleep.)
To figure out your natural sleep cycle, you keep a daily sleep diary. As you notice your sleep patterns you can use them to help you consolidate sleep. For example, I would go to bed at 11:00pm and fall asleep by 11:30 or so. Then I would wake up 2-3 times during the night. The last time, around 3:30am, I'd stay awake for awhile. Then I'd wake up at 5:30, again at 6:30, and finally get up (groggy) at 7:30 or 8pm. So, although I was in bed for 8-1/2 to 9 hours, I was sleeping maybe 6-1/2 hours total (unrestful, interrupted sleep). So we set my scheduled bedtime up a bit later and my waking time earlier so that I was only in bed about 7 hours total. But this is done in increments so you don't make a radical change in your habits all at once. It was hard at first, as my problem was getting up in the morning after a restless night. But eventually it started working, and I started getting a consolidated 6-1/2 hours of sleep. Then my goal was to increase that to at least 7 hours, which was also done incrementally. By the end of the program I was sleeping 7 hours straight through without medication (I had been on Ambien when I started the program).
I can fax you the sleep diary pages. The helpful thing about working with Dr. Kuo is that she helps you analyze your sleep diary to figure out your optimal sleep patterns.
We also used some chapters from a book called No More Sleepless Nights by Peter Hauri, Murray Jarman, and Shirley Linde (pub. by John Wiley & Sons).
I also wanted to mention that I did very well for some time after the program, but my sleep problems resurfaced earlier this year when my IBS problems worsened and I developed other GI problems. But I can return to the info I learned and it helps get me back on track. BTW, I also wanted to mention that, since my latest GI difficulties were affecting sleep, my doctor had me start taking 5HTP, a form of tryptophan, and that has helped quite a bit. I had gone back on Ambien, and I didn't want to continue it. I was able to stop the Ambien by switching to 5HTP.
Hope this helps a bit and that your sleep improves!! Send me your fax number.
Judithg
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Judithg,
Txs sooooo much for your excellent notes, they are very helpful and contain alot of new info for me. I just found them today, so sorry for the belated thank you. My FAX no is: 415-897-5085 and I very much appreciate your sending whatever other info you can whenever you get the chance.
I also ordered the hypno tapes from Heather and rec'd them yesterday, so began them last night. Maybe it was a placebo effect but I finally had a good night's sleep last night. My sleep debt is still quite large right now b/c I've slept so badly for so many nights but at least I feel like I'm on the road to solving this very distressing problem.
Speaking of sleep debt, it sounds like the sleep consolidation approach req'd that you be tired alot as you went thru it. How did you catch up on your sleep debt if you weren't allowed to take naps or to go to bed earlier than usual or sleep in later than usual? Or is this the whole idea ie: that one builds up so much of a sleep debt that it requires one's body to learn to sleep more efficiently/deeply in order to resolve the sleep debt?
If this is true, I'll be curious to see what the sleep doctor recommends for me, b/c I have developed migraines in the past several years- runs in my mother's family bigtime . Unfortunately, the biggest trigger for my migraines is becoming overtired. That's why my sleep problem has made me feel so distressed, b/c after 2-3 nights of waking early, and thus being tired that day, I inevitably get a migraine. Then I have to use Imitrex to resolve the H/A and this drug makes me more constipated. Then my C-IBS symptoms worsen, resulting in a bad night's sleep and so it goes, on and on and on .....it sounds like you know this picture too well yourself.
Until I get to meet w/ the Stanford MD and go thru the program, using 5-HTP sounds worthwhile. I currently take 1 mg melatonin an hour before sleep and I really feel that it does help me to fall asleep more easily. I'm wondering if, in addition to the melatonin, I could ALSO use the 5-HTP at 3-4 AM if I awaken, or is it only supposed to be taken before sleep? My other questions are:
Do you have any idea how long its effect lasts in the body?
What dose did your MD suggest and when do you take it?
Did he/she ever say that you could repeat the 5-HTP in the middle of the night to help you stay asleep or fall back to sleep?
Thanks again so much! I look forward to your FAX and I'll make sure I check back here for your reply sooner next time. 
All the best and really hope your sleep problems have calmed down alot. LL
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Many years of C-IBS and pain too for past 2 years-
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